Morgana in Distress [SPOILERS]

[Jimmy Rustler]

The part of the game where Morgana is feeling down really bothers me. I know it's all part of the Phantom Thieves giving in to hubris to some degree before the Okumura thing goes wrong, but how does Ren not notice? I keep wanting to squeeze Morgana's face and tell him he's needed.

I understand this is the reaction I'm supposed to have, but I just always end up wanting to finish it as quickly as possible. It really makes the Thieves seem not just as if they're getting a little self-important and letting things slip by them, but like they're ignoring and even making fun of a friend who is in obvious distress, especially Ryuji. This is how bad things happen to friends irl, and it kind of makes them a little too unlikable. Again, especially Ryuji.

This is weird, because I know I didn't like the scene where he got kicked when I played the original game, but i think I found Morgana just generally horribly annoying. I'm shocked that this has lessened as I've aged. Does anyone else hate Morgana and if so, what's wrong with you? It's not like he's Teddy.

[pixet]

When you age you just understand these characters a little better and how they think. They're written by experts who know what they're doing, they wouldn't make them grating without a reason. And besides, most of Morgana's appeal comes from the Mementos arc, which is where he truly shines. If you've played it, you might've gotten a better grasp of Morgana's character from the perspective of the overall big picture.

I've learned to like Teddie over time too. Morgana I was neutral towards until a few months later. I never actually hated them I guess though I might've to be cool.

It's weird because the argument is portrayed as "it's Ryuji's fault, Ryuji took responsibility, but Morgana of all people has nothing against him." I think. I don't know how to break down the argument because I feel like Morgana's undergoing 3 different character arcs at once (lost memories, becoming a better person, finding purpose in life,) so the running away is kind of weird to explain.

I don't 100% understand what makes Morgana tick though, I'm still absolutely confused about that. Persona 5's characters are just especially complex.

[Hanzo]

Originally posted by Jimmy Rustler:

This is weird, because I know I didn't like the scene where he got kicked when I played the original game, but i think I found Morgana just generally horribly annoying. I'm shocked that this has lessened as I've aged. Does anyone else hate Morgana and if so, what's wrong with you? It's not like he's Teddy.

I neither hate Morgana or Ryuji. Both of them act childish and I feel like Morgana provokes Ryuji a lot. My problem with that part of the game is that I see Morgana as a smart member, who probably knows his limit better than anyone and I just cannot see him risking life of another person on his whim and all conflict feels just too artificial. And taking his BS explaining why he did that also doesn't buy me. They've also done this small scene when fighting boss, when Morgana becomes "hero" to make him look better, but in reality I would be pissed. Because if my not stupid teammate cannot explain their thoughts and acts like some kid throwing tantrums that's bad, especially if that Morgana, which is not stupid

[Lumino]

Honestly, I thought Morgana was being a little ♥♥♥♥♥.

Yes, he had real problems, and those problems shouldn't be minimized. But the game throws the blame all on Ryuji when Morgana and Ryuji have been tearing each other down for the ENTIRE GAME.

Hell, Morgana does it MORE than Ryuji does, and nobody ever tells the damn cat to tone it down a bit. Standard rule of ♥♥♥♥ talking, don't dish it if you can't take it.

[pixet]

Originally posted by Hanzo:

Originally posted by Jimmy Rustler:

This is weird, because I know I didn't like the scene where he got kicked when I played the original game, but i think I found Morgana just generally horribly annoying. I'm shocked that this has lessened as I've aged. Does anyone else hate Morgana and if so, what's wrong with you? It's not like he's Teddy.

I neither hate Morgana or Ryuji. Both of them act childish and I feel like Morgana provokes Ryuji a lot. My problem with that part of the game is that I see Morgana as a smart member, who probably knows his limit better than anyone and I just cannot see him risking life of another person on his whim and all conflict feels just too artificial. And taking his BS explaining why he did that also doesn't buy me. They've also done this small scene when fighting boss, when Morgana becomes "hero" to make him look better, but in reality I would be pissed. Because if my not stupid teammate cannot explain their thoughts and acts like some kid throwing tantrums that's bad, especially if that Morgana, which is not stupid

I associate mascots with tantrums, but I wouldn't call them little kids. It's their insignificance towards pursuing childish dreams that make them immature, but they develop a serious determination to pursue them anyways.

[Jimmy Rustler]

Originally posted by Lumino:

Standard rule of ♥♥♥♥ talking, don't dish it if you can't take it.

That is true. But Morgana is a kitty cat.

[Ann☆ﾟ.*･｡]

the main reason morgana got 'alienated' is because he's losing his main role, an experienced metaverse guide to futaba, who does it better (well, you will notice it in a certain palace).
this worries morgana alot, because he has no place outside phantom thieves, if the team perceives morgana as useless member he worries he might no longer be phantom thieves (remind you morgana is a cat).so he wants to be useful again to the eyes of phantom thieves members.

about ren not noticing it, its simply because morgana does not want to tell his problems. you get to see it before ren sleeps.

the rest of that is a lil team miscommunication, nobody can talk out ryuji, because just like ren, nobody knows what the frick is the cat's problem.

[pixet]

I think all the mascots struggle to find their place to belong, but at the same time they don't want to depend on others and have to be ready to be alone. Balancing both is what asserts strong individuality in the characters.

[Gilgamesh]

I just did this part, and Morgana was the whiniest piece of ♥♥♥♥ on the planet.

Dude spends the ENTIRE game ripping on Ruiji, Ruiji gives it back to him one time, and Morgana throws a ♥♥♥♥♥ fit. It made me hate Morgana to the core, like, would've told him to leave permanently if the game let me.

[Jimmy Rustler]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh:

I just did this part, and Morgana was the whiniest piece of ♥♥♥♥ on the planet.

Dude spends the ENTIRE game ripping on Ruiji, Ruiji gives it back to him one time, and Morgana throws a ♥♥♥♥♥ fit. It made me hate Morgana to the core, like, would've told him to leave permanently if the game let me.

They spar a lot in the first part of the game, and it's just part of their dynamic. But in this part it's different. Mona is having some serious emotional issues, and when friends are going through things like that, you need to pay attention.

But to be fair that's sort of how I felt the first time I played, too.

[pixet]

I think it's more Morgana's English voice over is bad. A straightforward "smug" performance, but in Japanese he's portrayed as dependable even if played off as a joke. I hate English Morgana because the voice doesn't fit the character.

[Jimmy Rustler]

Originally posted by pixet:

I think it's more Morgana's English voice over is bad. A straightforward "smug" performance, but in Japanese he's portrayed as dependable even if played off as a joke. I hate English Morgana because the voice doesn't fit the character.

I've never played this game in English, don't really have a frame of reference.

The Japanese version is pretty offbeat, he uses some weird pronouns. He uses 'wagahai' a lot, which I think is inherently seen as arrogant in modern Japanese.

[pixet]

Originally posted by Jimmy Rustler:

Originally posted by pixet:

I think it's more Morgana's English voice over is bad. A straightforward "smug" performance, but in Japanese he's portrayed as dependable even if played off as a joke. I hate English Morgana because the voice doesn't fit the character.

I've never played this game in English, don't really have a frame of reference.

The Japanese version is pretty offbeat, he uses some weird pronouns. He uses 'wagahai' a lot, which I think is inherently seen as arrogant in modern Japanese.

True, but I feel like there is also openness to how he speaks which balances out the whole thing. Usually this attitude is undercut by Morgana's own unreliability, but otherwise the voice isn't figuratively repulsive.

[pixet]

I thought about it and I might've misinterpreted the point of the characters? Morgana starts off rude but becomes gradually better. But there's also this point where both Ryuji and Morgana are vulnerable and don't have to be treated like equals, and the game has them both become comfortable with that. That's how Morgana gets fleshed out too: he maintains the brashness of his tone while also becoming more comfortable with getting hurt, because he cares for the group and the group cares for him.

I think lots of the hate revolves more around Ryuji and the desire that he be treated decently. So there's the "be a jerk to Morgana" + "why are you being a jerk to meeee" mentality going on, when in actuality both characters are yearning to be more open to being insulted. So it's like trying to reverse the flow of a river, it's a losing battle. But that's an estimate more than a conclusive factor in my thesis about Mona.

The mascots integrate lots of humor but they're very well-thought out. It's just the characters introduced in a stereotypical, easy-to-understand fashion, before going into deep psychological factors to make them more complete people.

[Ann☆ﾟ.*･｡]

morgana is not rude, he is kind of arrogant (which leads him into kamoshida's prison, despite his vast experience in metaverse.)

i don't think its wrong for your friend to state a fact, or trying to compare abilities. don't we do that lots in-game choosing which character to bring into battle to exploit enemy weakness? it's just morgana take it a little too seriously.

in okumura arc, his only mistake is not telling the closest confidant his problem, you, privately, in your attic.

[pixet]

I keep reevaluating and Morgana's conceit is unique because it stems from his own human nature and capability, as while he can't properly cooperate, he's a good person. Compared to villains of the game who are driven by status or vanity. Morgana's handled well enough that he doesn't come off as a villain or a bad person in spite of his flaws, and midgame he cleans up his personality that it becomes appealing.

It's true that Morgana hates being criticized and would get over it, but by Okumura's he was in a transitional state where he genuinely questioned his self-worth, hence justifying the running away. He didn't care that Ryuji made fun of him, he hated that he was made to doubt himself. Past that arc Ryuji can make fun of Morgana just fine without Morgana being bothered from being "looked down on" or even doubting himself.

EDIT from here and down: Also, yeah comparisons are normal, but I think in the case of Ryuji's, they're misplaced or done wrong. It was wrong of Ryuji to compare Morgana to Futaba and leave it at that, as while it's true Morgana's incapable as Navigator, that enunciates the faux assumption that Morgana has no role or that he's not good enough. And this only added a distance between him and the others because he could only either beat himself up or look down on the others for failing to meet the same standards he is forced to endure. And that's why Morgana thought that in order to have worth, he has to do something as extreme as "take down an entire Palace by himself," if not completely solve the mental shutdown mystery.

When Morgana accused Ryuji of caring only for himself, Ryuji's response that "he's only in it too," while true, is another bad comparison because Morgana is genuinely trying to be well-meaning, and Ryuji's only bringing up the past and binding him down for it, which is a repeat of the same mistake he made from before. Morgana outmaneuvered Ryuji, but that only ensured that they couldn't be on speaking terms.