Who is Joker's canon love interest?

[💜Farron💜]

for story purposes...

[LouisKM124]

Originally posted by FlyingTorcensoredWhale:

Originally posted by Aragorn:

Sumire/Kasumi, Only character that confesses her love to Joker at rank 9 and well...have you seen their showtime? It practically screams "cannon" romance option.

Problem with Kasumi is: if you pick her out of the game and complete make her go away, game doesn't really change. If she is meant to be "canon love interest", then her only purpose in the story is to that love interest, which is both sad and bad writing.

Would Maruki still did his thing without Kasumi? Yes. There wasn't anything particularly unique about her problem of not wanting to be herself and crippling depression. And she wasn't the one that kicked off his story anyway, just a stepping stone.

Would adventures of Thieves happen in the same way? Yes. She is not featured in the main game, after all.

Could she be replaced as "character, that was really swayed by Maruki's offer"? Yes. With Haru being the prime candidate, that had lost her father literally months before.

There's no unique role that Kasumi plays, aside from "She confesses to the MC directly". So I don't really count her as a good candidate for being "canon" with how easy it is to pluck her out of the game.

You can say that to all girls once their arc’s over. With that being said, no romance are canon in this game, she is just the closest from being canon.

[FlyingTorcensoredWhale]

Originally posted by louislamkm:

Originally posted by FlyingTorcensoredWhale:

Problem with Kasumi is: if you pick her out of the game and complete make her go away, game doesn't really change. If she is meant to be "canon love interest", then her only purpose in the story is to that love interest, which is both sad and bad writing.

Would Maruki still did his thing without Kasumi? Yes. There wasn't anything particularly unique about her problem of not wanting to be herself and crippling depression. And she wasn't the one that kicked off his story anyway, just a stepping stone.

Would adventures of Thieves happen in the same way? Yes. She is not featured in the main game, after all.

Could she be replaced as "character, that was really swayed by Maruki's offer"? Yes. With Haru being the prime candidate, that had lost her father literally months before.

There's no unique role that Kasumi plays, aside from "She confesses to the MC directly". So I don't really count her as a good candidate for being "canon" with how easy it is to pluck her out of the game.

You can say that to all girls once their arc’s over. With that being said, no romance are canon in this game, she is just the closest from being canon.

Nope, I can not. I literally can not say this about any other character of the main cast.

Ryuji. He is the first guy, who drags you into the story. Without him, the story simply doesn't kickstart. You need Ryuji for it. Or someone like Ryuji. He is your first info-dump on the Kamoshida and your first guide through the school, just like Morgana is your first guide through the Metaverse.

Ann. If you take Ann out of the story, the whole Kamoshida Castle stops working, because you need Ann there. You can replace Ann with another girl, but someone has to play the role of Ann there.

Yusuke. He is the main link to Madarame storyline and a key person to his eventual downfall. Without Yusuke, Madarame's storyline would have to change significantly.

Makoto. Again, the major link to two - TWO - castles. Take Makoto out of the game, and the plot would have to change significantly to adjust for that.

Futaba. Major plot character, with connections to the whole story through her mother. Very hard to take out of the story, while keeping it intact.

Haru. Okumura's Palace kickstarts the whole downhill path for the Thieves and she is the major link to accessing it in the first place and for the whole slew of dilemmas, while also playing a big part in Morgana's plot. There has to be someone in place of Haru or major plot changes to how the things went.

Morgana. Not gonna even say anything.

Akechi. Again, no comments needed. Major rival to the Joker. It's like asking to take Virgil out of DMC3.

And then... Sumire. Does nothing in the main plot. And taking her out of the Royal story is inconsequential, because she wasn't necessary for Maruki to come to his conclusions. She was just "that one character, he tried his forces on for the first time." Can be replaced by literally anyone of the main cast in a role of "the one, who is swayed by Maruki", especially by Futaba and Haru.

[LouisKM124]

Originally posted by FlyingTorcensoredWhale:

Originally posted by louislamkm:

You can say that to all girls once their arc’s over. With that being said, no romance are canon in this game, she is just the closest from being canon.

Nope, I can not. I literally can not say this about any other character of the main cast.

Ryuji. He is the first guy, who drags you into the story. Without him, the story simply doesn't kickstart. You need Ryuji for it. Or someone like Ryuji. He is your first info-dump on the Kamoshida and your first guide through the school, just like Morgana is your first guide through the Metaverse.

Ann. If you take Ann out of the story, the whole Kamoshida Castle stops working, because you need Ann there. You can replace Ann with another girl, but someone has to play the role of Ann there.

Yusuke. He is the main link to Madarame storyline and a key person to his eventual downfall. Without Yusuke, Madarame's storyline would have to change significantly.

Makoto. Again, the major link to two - TWO - castles. Take Makoto out of the game, and the plot would have to change significantly to adjust for that.

Futaba. Major plot character, with connections to the whole story through her mother. Very hard to take out of the story, while keeping it intact.

Haru. Okumura's Palace kickstarts the whole downhill path for the Thieves and she is the major link to accessing it in the first place and for the whole slew of dilemmas, while also playing a big part in Morgana's plot. There has to be someone in place of Haru or major plot changes to how the things went.

Morgana. Not gonna even say anything.

Akechi. Again, no comments needed. Major rival to the Joker. It's like asking to take Virgil out of DMC3.

And then... Sumire. Does nothing in the main plot. And taking her out of the Royal story is inconsequential, because she wasn't necessary for Maruki to come to his conclusions. She was just "that one character, he tried his forces on for the first time." Can be replaced by literally anyone of the main cast in a role of "the one, who is swayed by Maruki", especially by Futaba and Haru.

I think you quite miss the point of the discussion here. We’re talking about canon ROMANCE. Not really talk about who is more essential to the main plot.

[FlyingTorcensoredWhale]

Originally posted by louislamkm:

Originally posted by FlyingTorcensoredWhale:

Nope, I can not. I literally can not say this about any other character of the main cast.

Ryuji. He is the first guy, who drags you into the story. Without him, the story simply doesn't kickstart. You need Ryuji for it. Or someone like Ryuji. He is your first info-dump on the Kamoshida and your first guide through the school, just like Morgana is your first guide through the Metaverse.

Ann. If you take Ann out of the story, the whole Kamoshida Castle stops working, because you need Ann there. You can replace Ann with another girl, but someone has to play the role of Ann there.

Yusuke. He is the main link to Madarame storyline and a key person to his eventual downfall. Without Yusuke, Madarame's storyline would have to change significantly.

Makoto. Again, the major link to two - TWO - castles. Take Makoto out of the game, and the plot would have to change significantly to adjust for that.

Futaba. Major plot character, with connections to the whole story through her mother. Very hard to take out of the story, while keeping it intact.

Haru. Okumura's Palace kickstarts the whole downhill path for the Thieves and she is the major link to accessing it in the first place and for the whole slew of dilemmas, while also playing a big part in Morgana's plot. There has to be someone in place of Haru or major plot changes to how the things went.

Morgana. Not gonna even say anything.

Akechi. Again, no comments needed. Major rival to the Joker. It's like asking to take Virgil out of DMC3.

And then... Sumire. Does nothing in the main plot. And taking her out of the Royal story is inconsequential, because she wasn't necessary for Maruki to come to his conclusions. She was just "that one character, he tried his forces on for the first time." Can be replaced by literally anyone of the main cast in a role of "the one, who is swayed by Maruki", especially by Futaba and Haru.

I think you quite miss the point of the discussion here. We’re talking about canon ROMANCE. Not really talk about who is more essential to the main plot.

Yeah, and I can't in good faith agree that you could say that a character, that could be plucked out of the story at any point with zero consequences is the "canon ROMANCE". Unless Atlus had decided in their infinite wisdom to add her *exclusively* to be canon ROMANCE option. While just shelving the whole story in the Strikers, which is an actual sequel. And was released AFTER P5R.

Sumire is so canon and important as the "main squeeze", that she doesn't really show up in the sequel. Yay.

[Firehawk]

A character whose story is locked behind an entirely new semester that didn't even exist in the original game cannot possibly be considered canon. It would only be wishful thinking.

[LouisKM124]

Originally posted by FlyingTorcensoredWhale:

Originally posted by louislamkm:

I think you quite miss the point of the discussion here. We’re talking about canon ROMANCE. Not really talk about who is more essential to the main plot.

Yeah, and I can't in good faith agree that you could say that a character, that could be plucked out of the story at any point with zero consequences is the "canon ROMANCE". Unless Atlus had decided in their infinite wisdom to add her *exclusively* to be canon ROMANCE option. While just shelving the whole story in the Strikers, which is an actual sequel. And was released AFTER P5R.

Sumire is so canon and important as the "main squeeze", that she doesn't really show up in the sequel. Yay.

I feel like you should know this by now. P5R and P5S were under development at the same time by different studios. That’s why P5S can’t possibly mention anything in P5R even though it’s canon. It’s also the reason why sumire is back in P5T.

PS: Sumire played a great factor when it came to reveal of Maruki’s arc. Without Sumire, Maruki will be too much of a sudden as a final boss. The moment when Joker knows Sumire was under the effect of Maruki’s power all that time does add weight to the story and sympathy to Maruk. And in the end of day, Sumire’s realisation was the one who surprised Maruki most to realise what he did was not perfect at all.

[LouisKM124]

Originally posted by Firehawk:

A character whose story is locked behind an entirely new semester that didn't even exist in the original game cannot possibly be considered canon. It would only be wishful thinking.

I wouldn’t say that to Marie because she also only got half of her story before third semester.
PS: comments like yours proved my point which I said I am glad this game doesn’t have a canon romance because people like you’re gonna discredit others by choosing anyone except the canon romance.

[Firehawk]

Originally posted by louislamkm:

PS: comments like yours proved my point which I said I am glad this game doesn’t have a canon romance because people like you’re gonna discredit others by choosing anyone except the canon romance.

What Marie? P5R doesn't even have a romantic interest called Marie. Are we even playing the same game?

Also, stop projecting your personal opinion as fact.

[FlyingTorcensoredWhale]

Originally posted by louislamkm:

Originally posted by FlyingTorcensoredWhale:

Yeah, and I can't in good faith agree that you could say that a character, that could be plucked out of the story at any point with zero consequences is the "canon ROMANCE". Unless Atlus had decided in their infinite wisdom to add her *exclusively* to be canon ROMANCE option. While just shelving the whole story in the Strikers, which is an actual sequel. And was released AFTER P5R.

Sumire is so canon and important as the "main squeeze", that she doesn't really show up in the sequel. Yay.

I feel like you should know this by now. P5R and P5S were under development at the same time by different studios. That’s why P5S can’t possibly mention anything in P5R even though it’s canon. It’s also the reason why sumire is back in P5T.

I'm pretty sure that communication between studios working on the same franchise is possible. It's hard, talking to people is always hard, but generally speaking - it is possible. Point stands: Sumire brings nothing to the plot, aside from confessing to the Main Character IF you get her to Level 10 (which is not required to access the Royal tbw - you're gonna be fine with 5). And if her only purpose in the story to be the "canon love choice", then it was executed very badly.

She has almost no integration in the main game aside from her limited amount of social links and a few scenes (one of which did get animated, but the integration is very jarring, where you live the event just to go back to the event again).

If this truly was the intent, then I didn't get it. And it's not like I didn't try to like Sumire. I truly did. I like the design and the idea behind her as well as high hopes for her participation in the Royal. Hell, I finished the game with Joker romancing her. It was very much... Whatever. On both ends. Her role in Royal was underwhelming, the romance was underwhelming. And I'm not a hard man to please. I see characters happy - I'm happy.

[LouisKM124]

Originally posted by Firehawk:

Originally posted by louislamkm:

PS: comments like yours proved my point which I said I am glad this game doesn’t have a canon romance because people like you’re gonna discredit others by choosing anyone except the canon romance.

What Marie? P5R doesn't even have a romantic interest called Marie. Are we even playing the same game?

Also, stop projecting your personal opinion as fact.

I guess you never played p4g. Also, everyone’s opinion are personal including yours and mine.

[LouisKM124]

Originally posted by FlyingTorcensoredWhale:

Originally posted by louislamkm:

I feel like you should know this by now. P5R and P5S were under development at the same time by different studios. That’s why P5S can’t possibly mention anything in P5R even though it’s canon. It’s also the reason why sumire is back in P5T.

I'm pretty sure that communication between studios working on the same franchise is possible. It's hard, talking to people is always hard, but generally speaking - it is possible. Point stands: Sumire brings nothing to the plot, aside from confessing to the Main Character IF you get her to Level 10 (which is not required to access the Royal tbw - you're gonna be fine with 5). And if her only purpose in the story to be the "canon love choice", then it was executed very badly.

She has almost no integration in the main game aside from her limited amount of social links and a few scenes (one of which did get animated, but the integration is very jarring, where you live the event just to go back to the event again).

If this truly was the intent, then I didn't get it. And it's not like I didn't try to like Sumire. I truly did. I like the design and the idea behind her as well as high hopes for her participation in the Royal. Hell, I finished the game with Joker romancing her. It was very much... Whatever. On both ends. Her role in Royal was underwhelming, the romance was underwhelming. And I'm not a hard man to please. I see characters happy - I'm happy.

I update the comment so I hope you check it as well. I just want you to know I respect people having their headcanon.

[FlyingTorcensoredWhale]

I've read it. And while fair point at the first glance, problem is: you could easily supplant her with one of the main cast. Akechi already plays similar role, as in: "Rejecting Maruki's reality out of hand" and if you wanted one of the Thieves to be very unwilling to "go back" - you could use pretty much any of them, with Haru, Futaba and Makoto being the strongest contenders. For they have pretty much the same issue as Sumire: dead family member.

Now consider the inconsistencies in behavior of Maruki that Sumire brings in the process. He easily brought back dead family members for all three of the girls, but Sumire gets to stay Kasumi. Why? Well, for the plot-twist. That's the only reason.

One might argue, that he had kept things as they were for Sumire, because that's what makes her happy, but he IS a god there, pretty much. And he is a medical professional, technically speaking. So while he was removing the sources of trauma for other characters, with Sumire he was removing the symptoms.

It would be way - WAY - more logical for him to bring back Kasumi and mellow down Sumire's inferiority complex, allowing her to be productive, happy and healthy. But that would ruin the plot-twist. And wouldn't be jerking on the heart-strings (supposedly).

From that perspective, Sumire is actively detracting from the story, creating a significant flaw in Maruki's actions and breaking his consistency. And he was pretty consistent in what he was doing and why.

[LouisKM124]

Originally posted by FlyingTorcensoredWhale:

I've read it. And while fair point at the first glance, problem is: you could easily supplant her with one of the main cast. Akechi already plays similar role, as in: "Rejecting Maruki's reality out of hand" and if you wanted one of the Thieves to be very unwilling to "go back" - you could use pretty much any of them, with Haru, Futaba and Makoto being the strongest contenders. For they have pretty much the same issue as Sumire: dead family member.

Now consider the inconsistencies in behavior of Maruki that Sumire brings in the process. He easily brought back dead family members for all three of the girls, but Sumire gets to stay Kasumi. Why? Well, for the plot-twist. That's the only reason.

One might argue, that he had kept things as they were for Sumire, because that's what makes her happy, but he IS a god there, pretty much. And he is a medical professional, technically speaking. So while he was removing the sources of trauma for other characters, with Sumire he was removing the symptoms.

It would be way - WAY - more logical for him to bring back Kasumi and mellow down Sumire's inferiority complex, allowing her to be productive, happy and healthy. But that would ruin the plot-twist. And wouldn't be jerking on the heart-strings (supposedly).

From that perspective, Sumire is actively detracting from the story, creating a significant flaw in Maruki's actions and breaking his consistency. And he was pretty consistent in what he was doing and why.

I get what you mean. However, I don’t feel the need of romance options should be tied to the weight of characters on the main plot. The game provides so many romance options outside of the thief group like takemi, Kawakami, chihaya, hifumi, etc. You see? Atlus never wants you to only choose someone who has big connection to the main plot. If they really want to, you won’t be able to choose anyone outside the thief group as a romance option. At the end of the day, everyone still has the fixed impact on the game no matter they and Joker stay as “friends” or “lovers” thus there is no canon romance because every romance option can be “canon”.

[Firehawk]

Originally posted by louislamkm:

Originally posted by FlyingTorcensoredWhale:

I've read it. And while fair point at the first glance, problem is: you could easily supplant her with one of the main cast. Akechi already plays similar role, as in: "Rejecting Maruki's reality out of hand" and if you wanted one of the Thieves to be very unwilling to "go back" - you could use pretty much any of them, with Haru, Futaba and Makoto being the strongest contenders. For they have pretty much the same issue as Sumire: dead family member.

Now consider the inconsistencies in behavior of Maruki that Sumire brings in the process. He easily brought back dead family members for all three of the girls, but Sumire gets to stay Kasumi. Why? Well, for the plot-twist. That's the only reason.

One might argue, that he had kept things as they were for Sumire, because that's what makes her happy, but he IS a god there, pretty much. And he is a medical professional, technically speaking. So while he was removing the sources of trauma for other characters, with Sumire he was removing the symptoms.

It would be way - WAY - more logical for him to bring back Kasumi and mellow down Sumire's inferiority complex, allowing her to be productive, happy and healthy. But that would ruin the plot-twist. And wouldn't be jerking on the heart-strings (supposedly).

From that perspective, Sumire is actively detracting from the story, creating a significant flaw in Maruki's actions and breaking his consistency. And he was pretty consistent in what he was doing and why.

I get what you mean. However, I don’t feel the need of romance options should be tied to the weight of characters on the main plot. The game provides so many romance options outside of the thief group like takemi, Kawakami, chihaya, hifumi, etc. You see? Atlus never wants you to only choose someone who has big connection to the main plot. If they really want to, you won’t be able to choose anyone outside the thief group as a romance option. At the end of the day, everyone still has the fixed impact on the game no matter they and Joker stay as “friends” or “lovers” thus there is no canon romance because every romance option can be “canon”.

The confidants are integrated into the storyline from the very beginning, something that can't be said about Kasumi. She offers no gameplay benefits, nor romance options until the third semester which is pretty much a post game plus. in that regard, no one would miss her if the player wasn't shoehorned into her return. I at the very least didn't, partly because I didn't try checking the conditions for the new "True Ending", which means I got the normal one by default and Kasumi just up and vanished after a point. That's how "major" character she is.

Heck, if she was intended to be a romantic option AND teammate, the devs could have made it so in the first place.

[LouisKM124]

Originally posted by Firehawk:

Originally posted by louislamkm:

I get what you mean. However, I don’t feel the need of romance options should be tied to the weight of characters on the main plot. The game provides so many romance options outside of the thief group like takemi, Kawakami, chihaya, hifumi, etc. You see? Atlus never wants you to only choose someone who has big connection to the main plot. If they really want to, you won’t be able to choose anyone outside the thief group as a romance option. At the end of the day, everyone still has the fixed impact on the game no matter they and Joker stay as “friends” or “lovers” thus there is no canon romance because every romance option can be “canon”.

The confidants are integrated into the storyline from the very beginning, something that can't be said about Kasumi. She offers no gameplay benefits, nor romance options until the third semester which is pretty much a post game plus. in that regard, no one would miss her if the player wasn't shoehorned into her return. I at the very least didn't, partly because I didn't try checking the conditions for the new "True Ending", which means I got the normal one by default and Kasumi just up and vanished after a point. That's how "major" character she is.

Heck, if she was intended to be a romantic option AND teammate, the devs could have made it so in the first place.

Kawakami, ohya, hifumi, chihya, etc confidant can be skipped entirely no matter what route you are going for. So I don’t really see a reason why Sumire can’t be romanced. I really don’t.

PS: gameplay benefit is just too subjective. Every perk except Ryuji’s lv 7 doesn’t really have a big gameplay impact. I like sumire’s long wire grab because it looks fun.