Railroad Development

[SupaNerdo]

As I've just crossed my 100th hour I think my main feedback is:

This game is awesome! Its got a nice balance between management and operations without either being overly cumbersome (like I don't have to know the full intricacies of steam generation, or remember a multifaceted supply chain dynamic) whats there is deep enough to be engaging without being overbearing.

If I was going to make one critique, it doesn't feel like my shortline, it feels like I'm the incumbent operator, I'm investing in infrastructure and expansion but I have no agency in the operational efficacy of the lines geography. The only place so far where I felt I had the expansion I wanted was at Dillsboro.

To explain what I mean (and I understand someone will argue about historical accuracy) but this is my line, in my game, if I want to have additional siding here, or a dual track there and have the money and resources to do it, I wish I could. I don't know if this is something coming down the line, with more milestones being added to the game.

For example at the Sylva interchange I wish there was better options for shunting, sorting and storing, at the moment I drag most of whats there down to Dillsboro to sort before pushing it back up. I find East Sylva's layout so frustrating, e.g: there isn't a connection between the spur on the mainline and the tannery, based on the games ingame cost of trackwork, I'd build that in a heartbeat. The ground between East Whittler and Thomas Valley looks pretty open straight and flat, ripe for dual track, the same between East Whittler and Whittler. In East Whittler I'd like to build a headshunt (like at Bryson) thats not on the mainline, and possibly a couple of dead-end shunts.

I very much look forward to seeing how this game grows and develops in early access. So thanks so much and heres to another 100 hours!

P.S: I'd also love to see businesses open either new or expand as operations improve along the line, e.g Stenzel or Hollifield adding extra tracks because supply is so good and business is booming, same with someone like Barkers Creek, that growth and track layout changes happen because of the players action, rather than completing a milestone. Similarly business can go bust, their track access disappears and the player can step in to allay their debts and reconnect them if they want.

[avgwarhawk]

Limited tracks and interchanges is part of the shunting puzzle. If the puzzle was easy, the game would not engross the players so much. IMO.

I have not tried the sandbox. I'm guessing it is possible to create the rail system of ones choosing?

[ProlubeBuyFuse]

I really agree with this. As much as I appreciate the historical accuracy and challenge created, there's a general non-historic vibe to how the economy and operations work in the game. My railroad makes a ton of money and is clearly super influential in this area. There's really no way a line on this scale wouldn't be able to add a couple sidings, connections, or a wye in some locations. I don't mind it being expensive, hidden behind other milestones, or a project I need to haul cars for, but it definitely hurts my immersion to be able to earn so much money, have so many expensive, brand-new engines, and not be able to affect the world to make my business and service better.

I think one of my biggest negatives with the game so far is the lack of shortline-type struggles of low revenue, decrepit engines, and operational challenges. Absent those, it feels arcadey, which kinda makes the map feel like it doesn't match the gameplay.

[bfcmik]

Originally posted by ProlubeBuyFuse:

I really agree with this. As much as I appreciate the historical accuracy and challenge created, there's a general non-historic vibe to how the economy and operations work in the game. My railroad makes a ton of money and is clearly super influential in this area. There's really no way a line on this scale wouldn't be able to add a couple sidings, connections, or a wye in some locations. I don't mind it being expensive, hidden behind other milestones, or a project I need to haul cars for, but it definitely hurts my immersion to be able to earn so much money, have so many expensive, brand-new engines, and not be able to affect the world to make my business and service better.

I think one of my biggest negatives with the game so far is the lack of shortline-type struggles of low revenue, decrepit engines, and operational challenges. Absent those, it feels arcadey, which kinda makes the map feel like it doesn't match the gameplay.

There is a way to make this happen. Edit your mode to sandbox then add minus money so you need to borrow to buy coal etc., set your loco conditions to a low number (this will destroy your reputation meaning you get less income) and don't run a passenger service for a couple of days.
It will take weeks of game time before you even start to believe you might succeed

[noncom]

Wow, I'm getting some very mixed signals here. So what is it? A historically-accurate line or a puzzle? I saw quite a few claims of this being the former one?

Because if this is a historically-accurate reproduction of that line, I would imagine that the railroad builders and operators would want to make it anything but a puzzle. At least very much strive for that, even if not initially getting it right.

I'm playing for just a few hours, just getting the bridge behind Ela built, and I'm already questioning the sanity of the builders of the railroad sometimes. Like, who and why would design the tracks at Ela station to literally be a zigzag shape? Why not just connect the middle zigzag track (the one behind the station) with the main line to give a lot more leeway in operating this station? I have no clue. I am not a railroad builder, but this looks and feels quite weird. There are other strange places across the map that I've already seen, like "missing" intersections here and there. Seriously, is it better to make trains do a lot of maneuvers instead of just making a couple more intersections? I'm asking because I really don't know, maybe it is.

If this is a historical reproduction, does anyone know why would they build the tracks in such a strange way? Including what OP mentions as well. Do we know what were they thinking when building that?

If this is just a railroad puzzle game served under the sauce of allegedly historically accurate visuals, then of course there's little question to the purpose of the builders, because these builders were thinking of giving you fun time. Then this is understandable, though I'd wished that there were some affordable buildups later in the game, with the puzzle focus shifting to something new from the already beaten layouts.

[sbmarauderman03]

Originally posted by noncom:

Wow, I'm getting some very mixed signals here. So what is it? A historically-accurate line or a puzzle? I saw quite a few claims of this being the former one?

Because if this is a historically-accurate reproduction of that line, I would imagine that the railroad builders and operators would want to make it anything but a puzzle. At least very much strive for that, even if not initially getting it right.

I'm playing for just a few hours, just getting the bridge behind Ela built, and I'm already questioning the sanity of the builders of the railroad sometimes. Like, who and why would design the tracks at Ela station to literally be a zigzag shape? Why not just connect the middle zigzag track (the one behind the station) with the main line to give a lot more leeway in operating this station? I have no clue. I am not a railroad builder, but this looks and feels quite weird. There are other strange places across the map that I've already seen, like "missing" intersections here and there. Seriously, is it better to make trains do a lot of maneuvers instead of just making a couple more intersections? I'm asking because I really don't know, maybe it is.

If this is a historical reproduction, does anyone know why would they build the tracks in such a strange way? Including what OP mentions as well. Do we know what were they thinking when building that?

If this is just a railroad puzzle game served under the sauce of allegedly historically accurate visuals, then of course there's little question to the purpose of the builders, because these builders were thinking of giving you fun time. Then this is understandable, though I'd wished that there were some affordable buildups later in the game, with the puzzle focus shifting to something new from the already beaten layouts.

While the devs lean heavily on the history of the Murphy branch, their depiction (track-laying) isn't a 100% accurate snapshot of what it was like for the era. If you are really interested in how this line looked when it was at its peak usage, there is a plethora of information you can scour by doing a simple internet search. This line pretty much hit its peak around the same time diesel engines were introduced. As the automobile became more popular and trucks began to deliver more goods and road/highway systems were improved, the need for this line decreased throughout the 50s and 60s, and when textile manufacturing began being outsourced in the 70s and 80s, that was pretty much the last nail in the coffin for the Murphy branch to be profitable. Now that the paper mill in Canton (halfway between Sylva and Asheville) ceased operations last summer, the only things keeping this line alive are the GSMR and the 3-4 industries that still rely on rail service between Sylva and Asheville...and it probably won't be long before they are gone as well.

[Oilman25]

Believe it or not Ela, NC was a railroad junction town between Southern Railway and railroad called Appalachian Railway (1906-1935) connecting Ela, NC to Ocona Lufty,NC was built to haul logs and pulpwood from various logging camps to Ela, NC and to be move by the Southern Railway to the Parson Pulp & Lumber Company mills at various places.

The Parson Pulp & Lumber Company owned the Appalachian Railway (1906-1935) and so answers question why Ela, NC has such a crazy track plan to the place.

Also the Appalachian Railway (1906-1935) haul passengers and freight from a couple of small towns and villages were along the right of way and with said small towns and villages being on a Native American reservation that a section of the Cherokee Nation live on.

It might make for interesting alternate history to rebuild the Appalachian Railway (1906-1935) as a branch line in the game given that it was rip up for the building of the great smoky mountains national park in the mid 1930s and would add some more traffic in freight and passengers to anyone's railroad.

Mainly I want to have a easier source of logs than the Walker branch line to get logs from I'm running single player in my game of Railroader, and from just looking at the Walker branch line is going to be a pain in the neck to work and being one person I would love to up tier Whittier sawmill.

But working the Walker branch line to get logs from is too problematic for me I am at tier 3 with Whittier sawmill and still got the Whittier Interchange trying at higher tiers with Walker branch line and with no tracks to store log cars on till Whittier sawmill needs it is not workable so add tracks at Whittier sawmill for log cars and maybe the Appalachian Railway (1906-1935) add as well please thank you if you can.

[thebear05]

I use L1 = 5 cars, L2 =8 cars L3 =7 cars at Connelly Creek. That is a total of of 20 cars a day. I have one set of cars unloading at the sawmill, another set waiting in the unallocated siding on the left of the sawmill. I also have a tier 3 contract with the sawmill. I will not go higher than this as I am running Robinson Gap coal at tier 5. A lot more reward for less effort. The only down side is the need for decent locomotive power. If you are look for more storage for logs, use the lower part of the east Whittier Wye.
As for the track layout in the game, that’s what you have to work with. The challenge of the game is to make the best use of what you have got and plan accordingly.

[avgwarhawk]

Crazy landscape created crazy tracks.

[SupaNerdo]

Originally posted by noncom:

Wow, I'm getting some very mixed signals here. So what is it? A historically-accurate line or a puzzle? I saw quite a few claims of this being the former one?

Because if this is a historically-accurate reproduction of that line, I would imagine that the railroad builders and operators would want to make it anything but a puzzle. At least very much strive for that, even if not initially getting it right.

I'm playing for just a few hours, just getting the bridge behind Ela built, and I'm already questioning the sanity of the builders of the railroad sometimes. Like, who and why would design the tracks at Ela station to literally be a zigzag shape? Why not just connect the middle zigzag track (the one behind the station) with the main line to give a lot more leeway in operating this station? I have no clue. I am not a railroad builder, but this looks and feels quite weird. There are other strange places across the map that I've already seen, like "missing" intersections here and there. Seriously, is it better to make trains do a lot of maneuvers instead of just making a couple more intersections? I'm asking because I really don't know, maybe it is.

If this is a historical reproduction, does anyone know why would they build the tracks in such a strange way? Including what OP mentions as well. Do we know what were they thinking when building that?

If this is just a railroad puzzle game served under the sauce of allegedly historically accurate visuals, then of course there's little question to the purpose of the builders, because these builders were thinking of giving you fun time. Then this is understandable, though I'd wished that there were some affordable buildups later in the game, with the puzzle focus shifting to something new from the already beaten layouts.

In the real world, weird track layouts are usually the product of either geographic features or land ownership ones (i.e a landowner of adjacent tracks (of land) refuses to give wayleave, access or sale, often historically because the presence of the railway can inflate value (or atleast the perception of value).

I believe that the game can be both a problem solving puzzle and a relatively accurate recreation of the Murphy branch of the era (I don't think these are mutually exclusive), however from my understanding the role of the game (and the player) isn't to demonstrate a museum, its to put the player in administrative control of a shortline, which I feel should allow more creative licence on layout.

I think the milestone system works quite well for this. Want a harder game? Don't do milestones e.g: don't build the Dillboro depot, want a historically accurate route, only build the bits that actually exist. On the flip side, those who are either more into the management perspective or primarily see games as primarily entertainment rather than education, I think would appreciate more opportunities to expand their lines. Perhaps in the future we will have more mutually exclusive milestones (The only one I'm aware of at the moment is East Whittler vs. Sylva interchange), which will also make the diversity of operation between multiplayer sessions more interesting too.

fwiw, these are just my opinions they are neither right or wrong, feel free to disagree with them. As I said in my first post, I look forward to see how the game develops in early access, and I'm impressed with what is currently making up the game

[CMDR Sweeper]

Originally posted by avgwarhawk:

Limited tracks and interchanges is part of the shunting puzzle. If the puzzle was easy, the game would not engross the players so much. IMO.

I have not tried the sandbox. I'm guessing it is possible to create the rail system of ones choosing?

While true, solving the same puzzle over and over again, do not add much fun to it.
However, this is where you can tie into the addicting upgrade and economy mechanic of the game and provide an upgrade to your railroad track to fix these issues.
And then you have to make a decision as a player, spend the money or live with it and keep the cash for other purchases.

[bfcmik]

Originally posted by SupaNerdo:

For example at the Sylva interchange I wish there was better options for shunting, sorting and storing, at the moment I drag most of whats there down to Dillsboro to sort before pushing it back up. I find East Sylva's layout so frustrating, e.g: there isn't a connection between the spur on the mainline and the tannery, based on the games ingame cost of trackwork, I'd build that in a heartbeat.

The real railroad would have generally just dragged what it could to East Sylva and used the 2 tracks for shunting but if they had had the Dillsboro yard then they would have just hauled the whole interchange delivery there and then sorted it.

The tannery at East Sylva would have been on private land and the railroad would have accessed each of the south side sidings through gates and there would likely have also been a gate at the entrance to the branch into the main plant or, if not, then gated access to the various sidings.

[sbmarauderman03]

For anyone interested in what the trackage looked like in Sylva back in the day, the link below will take you to what are called Sanborn maps. The map linked is for Sylva in 1933:

https://www.loc.gov/maps/?fa=location:north+carolina%7Cpartof:sanborn+maps%7Clocation:sylva&st=image

[thebear05]

If you look at the Murphy Branch in google earth, the only flat ground is where the settlements are. The route follows the river for a lot of most of the time. It was originally built by convict labour. There are a lot of disused industry sidings on the line. The company would only build the basic minimum of trackage to service their customers and it would be up to the engineers to use what is available.

[sbmarauderman03]

Here is a link to another website I came across a couple years ago that has detailed info about the Murphy branch in the late 19th/early 20th century.

https://www.wcu.edu/library/digitalcollections/travelwnc/1910s/index.html

I also remember reading a 70 page 'paper' about the building of the line from the WCU archives, but can't seem to find the link for it at the moment.