Regarding an Important Plot Point

[Giant Enemy Crab]

Spoilers for those who haven't seen the credits.

One of the story's bigger plot points involve the forgotten country, and I expected it to be something resolved and named by the end of the story. But even after everything, even the ending dialogue with Loop, this was left unanswered. Did I miss something or was this not answered anywhere? It felt like a strange tangent for it to be so important that you even talk to the King about it and trying to speak the name literally breaks the world to the point of seeing a glimpse of color. I can get why the color subplot was left unresolved (for dramatic effect in the penultimate battle), but the lack of resolution for what the country's name was (or even what happened to it) would have been nice.

[brickey.8]

It was left unresolved on purpose. Undoing what happened to their country is simply outside the scope of Siffrin's abilities and outside the scope of their wish.

Instead, the trauma of losing/not knowing your own culture (and the feeling that you're missing part of your identity) is one of the hardships that both Siffrin and the King have to struggle with. It's also a theme of Odile's subplot. The tragic event is just a thing that has happened, that Siffrin needs to learn to live with.

As for what happened, it is strongly implied that the country vanishing (and likely also colors vanishing) was the result of reckless use of wishcraft. What exactly the wish was is a mystery, but it's an example of why the stuff is so dangerous.

[Giant Enemy Crab]

Perhaps it'll be explored in a sequel. Thanks for verifying that I didn't miss a key conversation somewhere.

[AriesIgnitor]

Well, there actually is one thing at the very end, but you would have to interact with the view at the top of the house (you know, the area with the head maiden). At the very end when you interact with it, Siffrin notice's an island in the distance. What this actually means... I wouldn't be able to say confidently without first acknowledging that it would be heavily speculative. Personally I think that in relation with the king remembering the country as he froze in time, and everything with the wish literally ripping apart reality at the end, that something happened in all that mess that must've done something to whatever wish that erased the country. Again, heavily speculative, as there's also an point to be made about Siffrin not suddenly remembering everything, but personally to me it all just kind of "fits" just a little too well to just be baseless speculation (like, this comment about an island in the distance is never mentioned UNTIL the end if you interact with the view).

[brickey.8]

I didn't see that bit about the island, that's fascinating! Crazy that the game sticks things that big where you can miss them.

I will point out another thing from the epilogue: The woman who can't remember her sister because she was on the island when it vanished has a conversation which reveals that she still can't remember her, but feels less sure about that fact. She now vaguely remembers it like it was in a dream, and feels like having a sister would be right. But this occurs after the damage to reality is already fixed.

[AriesIgnitor]

Huh, somehow I missed her when going through all the towns-people, I've gotta check that out. Anyways, yeah something is definitely up by the end of the game, and among other things there's also the fact that Siffrin can remember a funeral rite specific to his erased culture on the spot for Loop if you haven't met the requirements for the fight with them in the end. I would also like to point that it's also likely that the country and all memory of it being continually erased from everyone's minds isn't actually the "result" of a wish, but rather the side effect.

What I mean is that all the things we see happen in regards to trying to remember the country have an uncanny similarity to to what happens when you give Mirabelle the gift from her fan when you already did so in a previous loop. She has a meltdown over the paradox until Siffrin points her away from it for a moment (by pointing out she's wearing it) at which point she just acts like what happened didn't happen. Again, this is more speculation, but I would say that if the effects of the "little" time paradox's Siffrin creates just by getting equipment and keeping it while he's loops, and the consequent "correction" the universe attempts to make whenever they interact with where the equipment "should" be, are to go by, then whatever actually happened wasn't just a "oops I wished this country and culture out of existence, sort of." scenario, but actually something much worse.

Like, it's all about things slowly becoming paradoxical due to "conflicting" actions being taken while a wish is in effect. That ribbon SHOULD be in the letter, but isn't, but it should, but it isn't, but it should, but it ISN'T. You already gave it to Mirabelle, but that isn't "right" now is it, your clearly giving it to her now. But she already has it....

That island and country should exist. and yet they don't. But they should, right? and yet they don't. people know SOMETHING has to be up, you can't just make something as far reaching a country and it's culture and knowledge "just" disappear. Just look, there are people that are wholly entwined with it walking around, able to half remember when their brains are given a chance, so it can't just "not" exist! And yet....


It really begs the question. If a side effect of the wish was turning that country and everything about it into a paradox.... Then what the ♥♥♥♥ was the wish?

Of course, as I've already said a couple of times now, it's a-lot of speculation. But there has to be a method to madness, right?

[Jarp]

Originally posted by AriesIgnitor:

Huh, somehow I missed her when going through all the towns-people, I've gotta check that out. Anyways, yeah something is definitely up by the end of the game, and among other things there's also the fact that Siffrin can remember a funeral rite specific to his erased culture on the spot for Loop if you haven't met the requirements for the fight with them in the end. I would also like to point that it's also likely that the country and all memory of it being continually erased from everyone's minds isn't actually the "result" of a wish, but rather the side effect.

What I mean is that all the things we see happen in regards to trying to remember the country have an uncanny similarity to to what happens when you give Mirabelle the gift from her fan when you already did so in a previous loop. She has a meltdown over the paradox until Siffrin points her away from it for a moment (by pointing out she's wearing it) at which point she just acts like what happened didn't happen. Again, this is more speculation, but I would say that if the effects of the "little" time paradox's Siffrin creates just by getting equipment and keeping it while he's loops, and the consequent "correction" the universe attempts to make whenever they interact with where the equipment "should" be, are to go by, then whatever actually happened wasn't just a "oops I wished this country and culture out of existence, sort of." scenario, but actually something much worse.

Like, it's all about things slowly becoming paradoxical due to "conflicting" actions being taken while a wish is in effect. That ribbon SHOULD be in the letter, but isn't, but it should, but it isn't, but it should, but it ISN'T. You already gave it to Mirabelle, but that isn't "right" now is it, your clearly giving it to her now. But she already has it....

That island and country should exist. and yet they don't. But they should, right? and yet they don't. people know SOMETHING has to be up, you can't just make something as far reaching a country and it's culture and knowledge "just" disappear. Just look, there are people that are wholly entwined with it walking around, able to half remember when their brains are given a chance, so it can't just "not" exist! And yet....


It really begs the question. If a side effect of the wish was turning that country and everything about it into a paradox.... Then what the ♥♥♥♥ was the wish?

Of course, as I've already said a couple of times now, it's a-lot of speculation. But there has to be a method to madness, right?

Another thing is that I've noticed it's basically brought to attention several times that the memories are basically still there, but they'll always escape you if you try and actively recall them. Like, it will come to someone in casual thoughtless responses, yet the moment the person starts to actually think about it, it slips out of reach. For example the diary interaction (when you go back through it in like act 4 and ask if Isabeau can say it anyways) ends up where isabeau almost said it yet when asked to recall it after being stopped can't remember anymore.
Oh, there's also that one time Siffrin recalls something about his parents when eating the malanga fritters, where once he realizes what he was just thinking about it just resets and goes on as if it never happened.

Basically from what I understand the memories are all there, yet they refuse to come out of hiding when they're being "watched", if you get what I mean.

[AriesIgnitor]

Originally posted by Just a random person i guess:

Originally posted by AriesIgnitor:

Huh, somehow I missed her when going through all the towns-people, I've gotta check that out. Anyways, yeah something is definitely up by the end of the game, and among other things there's also the fact that Siffrin can remember a funeral rite specific to his erased culture on the spot for Loop if you haven't met the requirements for the fight with them in the end. I would also like to point that it's also likely that the country and all memory of it being continually erased from everyone's minds isn't actually the "result" of a wish, but rather the side effect.

What I mean is that all the things we see happen in regards to trying to remember the country have an uncanny similarity to to what happens when you give Mirabelle the gift from her fan when you already did so in a previous loop. She has a meltdown over the paradox until Siffrin points her away from it for a moment (by pointing out she's wearing it) at which point she just acts like what happened didn't happen. Again, this is more speculation, but I would say that if the effects of the "little" time paradox's Siffrin creates just by getting equipment and keeping it while he's loops, and the consequent "correction" the universe attempts to make whenever they interact with where the equipment "should" be, are to go by, then whatever actually happened wasn't just a "oops I wished this country and culture out of existence, sort of." scenario, but actually something much worse.

Like, it's all about things slowly becoming paradoxical due to "conflicting" actions being taken while a wish is in effect. That ribbon SHOULD be in the letter, but isn't, but it should, but it isn't, but it should, but it ISN'T. You already gave it to Mirabelle, but that isn't "right" now is it, your clearly giving it to her now. But she already has it....

That island and country should exist. and yet they don't. But they should, right? and yet they don't. people know SOMETHING has to be up, you can't just make something as far reaching a country and it's culture and knowledge "just" disappear. Just look, there are people that are wholly entwined with it walking around, able to half remember when their brains are given a chance, so it can't just "not" exist! And yet....


It really begs the question. If a side effect of the wish was turning that country and everything about it into a paradox.... Then what the ♥♥♥♥ was the wish?

Of course, as I've already said a couple of times now, it's a-lot of speculation. But there has to be a method to madness, right?

Another thing is that I've noticed it's basically brought to attention several times that the memories are basically still there, but they'll always escape you if you try and actively recall them. Like, it will come to someone in casual thoughtless responses, yet the moment the person starts to actually think about it, it slips out of reach. For example the diary interaction (when you go back through it in like act 4 and ask if Isabeau can say it anyways) ends up where isabeau almost said it yet when asked to recall it after being stopped can't remember anymore.
Oh, there's also that one time Siffrin recalls something about his parents when eating the malanga fritters, where once he realizes what he was just thinking about it just resets and goes on as if it never happened.

Basically from what I understand the memories are all there, yet they refuse to come out of hiding when they're being "watched", if you get what I mean.

Yeah, I get it. I think the fundamental nature of the paradox is similar to the classic Schrodinger paradox with the cat in the box, except the universe tries harder and harder to prevent "knowledge" of the paradox (essentially, it tries to distract you from it by voiding it the more you directly think about it) being... I don't know how to phrase it properly, just "existing" doesn't quite do it, but made something with more substance, if that makes sense (in the case of the cat in the box itself, it would likely be opening the box while looking, or maybe just even looking at the box itself). We do know that between the incident and the conversation with the king that there is a big emphasis on "speaking it into reality" by saying the countries name, and this also seems to have the most adverse effect from reality as well, with the attempt to say the name literally beginning to kill both the king and Siffrin (I don't actually know what the star that deforms and breaks means in this scenario, it might either be a stand in for the respective wishes, or for the universe itself, which is whats powering the wishes). We also know that someone attempted to write the name down and it turned it into literal unreadable eldritch gibberish, even for Siffrin when they remembered how to read and speak their language again. It would seem actually speaking the name might be akin to forcefully and directly acknowledging the paradox, and who knows what that would do to the universe (if the universe allowed it). It might be that actually directly acknowledging the paradox naturally forces it to resolve, as if you were opening the box to look at the cat.

[brickey.8]

I think the reason for the red star during that fight with the king is that because both Siffrin and the King kept trying harder and harder to say the name and wouldn't give up, they were pushing the paradox to its breaking point. Seeing red indicates that whatever magic is hiding stuff from the universe is on the verge of failing. But instead of returning that knowledge, it just resists the attempt more and more violently.

[ethereal_intellect]

Originally posted by AriesIgnitor:

Well, there actually is one thing at the very end, but you would have to interact with the view at the top of the house (you know, the area with the head maiden). At the very end when you interact with it, Siffrin notice's an island in the distance. What this actually means... I wouldn't be able to say confidently without first acknowledging that it would be heavily speculative. Personally I think that in relation with the king remembering the country as he froze in time, and everything with the wish literally ripping apart reality at the end, that something happened in all that mess that must've done something to whatever wish that erased the country. Again, heavily speculative, as there's also an point to be made about Siffrin not suddenly remembering everything, but personally to me it all just kind of "fits" just a little too well to just be baseless speculation (like, this comment about an island in the distance is never mentioned UNTIL the end if you interact with the view).

I vaguely remember the king talking about being sad about being able to see his homeland from the tower/castle but not being able to say the name or remember it. So the view isn't a new thing that happened at the end i think, its just siff noticing it again in the clear weather

[AriesIgnitor]

Originally posted by ethereal_intellect:

Originally posted by AriesIgnitor:

Well, there actually is one thing at the very end, but you would have to interact with the view at the top of the house (you know, the area with the head maiden). At the very end when you interact with it, Siffrin notice's an island in the distance. What this actually means... I wouldn't be able to say confidently without first acknowledging that it would be heavily speculative. Personally I think that in relation with the king remembering the country as he froze in time, and everything with the wish literally ripping apart reality at the end, that something happened in all that mess that must've done something to whatever wish that erased the country. Again, heavily speculative, as there's also an point to be made about Siffrin not suddenly remembering everything, but personally to me it all just kind of "fits" just a little too well to just be baseless speculation (like, this comment about an island in the distance is never mentioned UNTIL the end if you interact with the view).

I vaguely remember the king talking about being sad about being able to see his homeland from the tower/castle but not being able to say the name or remember it. So the view isn't a new thing that happened at the end i think, its just siff noticing it again in the clear weather

Yeah actually, that makes sense especially with that Q&A post that came out today, also kind of blows apart everything with the "paradox" thought process I had, (Q&A said that the wish simply made everyone forget about the country, which really implies wayyyyyyy different things to what I was thinking about) lmao. Still though, cool to think about this in a different perspective now!