Playstyle / Tips for Wehrmacht Breakthrough BG?

[NecessaryWeevil]

Hi, I could use some help with the Breakthrough BG. It seems like you're intended to aim for getting tanks quickly, given the various buffs in the skill tree, while the upgraded infantry helps you hang on and the trucks improve your economy. I guess you're also supposed to play more aggressively and push forward?
My problem is that I need to have a big enough force to be effective in the meantime (Kettenkrad, 1 Pioneer, 2 MGs, 2 Grenadiers, antitank options) that the game is usually already won by the time I am able to field more than, say, 1 tank. I mostly play 3v3 or 4v4 vs AI.
Thanks!

[Slim]

I'd forgo the second Grenadier simply because the unit is utterly trash. 1 is ok to just be there but Grens are not good damage dealers and they are expensive to maintain. By the time you have your other units out you should be able or nearly to build the Luft building for Jaegers.

I'd suggest 2 or 3 Jaegers with one being upgraded with shrek asap. This will counter the early game vehicle spam and deter light tanks. A 2nd or 3rd shrek is available if light tank spam is evident.

If you can get away with getting an 8 rad instead of a Wirble would be the route I'd take to get to Panthers quicker. 8 rad can capture territory so if you lose your ketten you're not completely out. Go for the 0 CP Panther for the tank building. It will come out quicker than waiting for the other CPs to pile up and I don't believe there's a price difference between making one and calling one in. Don't matter it's out quicker.

If you have to get a Wirble because of Allied infantry spam you'll have to invest more into AT options with Jaegers or Marders. Avoid Marders unless the Allied player is paying attention and is out ranging your Jaegers effectively.

[ShodaN]

Originally posted by Slim:

I'd forgo the second Grenadier simply because the unit is utterly trash. 1 is ok to just be there but Grens are not good damage dealers and they are expensive to maintain. By the time you have your other units out you should be able or nearly to build the Luft building for Jaegers.

I'd suggest 2 or 3 Jaegers with one being upgraded with shrek asap. This will counter the early game vehicle spam and deter light tanks. A 2nd or 3rd shrek is available if light tank spam is evident.

If you can get away with getting an 8 rad instead of a Wirble would be the route I'd take to get to Panthers quicker. 8 rad can capture territory so if you lose your ketten you're not completely out. Go for the 0 CP Panther for the tank building. It will come out quicker than waiting for the other CPs to pile up and I don't believe there's a price difference between making one and calling one in. Don't matter it's out quicker.

If you have to get a Wirble because of Allied infantry spam you'll have to invest more into AT options with Jaegers or Marders. Avoid Marders unless the Allied player is paying attention and is out ranging your Jaegers effectively.

That's Mechanized though and not Breakthrough.

[Slim]

Originally posted by ShodaN:

Originally posted by Slim:

I'd forgo the second Grenadier simply because the unit is utterly trash. 1 is ok to just be there but Grens are not good damage dealers and they are expensive to maintain. By the time you have your other units out you should be able or nearly to build the Luft building for Jaegers.

I'd suggest 2 or 3 Jaegers with one being upgraded with shrek asap. This will counter the early game vehicle spam and deter light tanks. A 2nd or 3rd shrek is available if light tank spam is evident.

If you can get away with getting an 8 rad instead of a Wirble would be the route I'd take to get to Panthers quicker. 8 rad can capture territory so if you lose your ketten you're not completely out. Go for the 0 CP Panther for the tank building. It will come out quicker than waiting for the other CPs to pile up and I don't believe there's a price difference between making one and calling one in. Don't matter it's out quicker.

If you have to get a Wirble because of Allied infantry spam you'll have to invest more into AT options with Jaegers or Marders. Avoid Marders unless the Allied player is paying attention and is out ranging your Jaegers effectively.

That's Mechanized though and not Breakthrough.

AHA you're right.

[Slim]

OK so what I said about Grens still stands. Your smg upgrade for them will only allow you to barely beat Riflemen without bars in close combat. Everything else is the same for non BG units. Edit2: Another point would be that 2 Grens wouldn't be enough anyway as Riflemen spam is cheaper and all around better regardless. Your 2 will be facing 3/4 fairly early in a match.

Don't bother with the Breakthru ability, the smoke run is leagues more useful as it isn't limited to just capturing territory and can save your units too. And frankly, the incendiary isn't all that great either. Allies have a plethora of abilities to make their infantry dirt cheap and the fire doesn't damage decrewed weapons that allows for easy recrewing by nearby med trucks.

And don't bother with the Tiger, the Command Panzer is decent at anti infantry while allowing your blob to survive better. But, getting it out early to get the vets make it better at infantry killing AND for bonus kicks and giggles get yourself a 221 into your vehicle blob so when it dies you get yourself a big ol buff for a bit.

But, essentially you're still going to have to focus on Jaegers and Marders. You won't need to invest into the later tank building and go for nerfullwerfers instead. Later investing into Panzer 4s when you can afford it. While the strostupen call in can make up for your Grens not being alive by that point lol.

Edit: Essentially, your investment for tanks really isn't that necessary simply because Panzer 4s don't have the field presence of previous coh games. The larger team game maps are all too small and narrow to allow your P4s to be cost effective and frankly aren't really that great for countering Ranger spam for the cost AND the maps being so narrow it is much easier to push and fall back with AT guns since flanks are easier to secure (I'm looking at you winter line).

[NecessaryWeevil]

Okay, TY!

[ShodaN]

Honestly one of the best thing about the BG imo is the call-in with Stoßtruppen. A squad of those and a HT can be great at 4 CP. Especially when you don't go with the Panzergrenadier company and invest more heavily into your second tier before going for the Panzer one. You get two things, you'd otherwise have no or delayed access to.

[NecessaryWeevil]

@Slim I gotta say, given that your recommendations don't really involve relying on the BG's distinctive features very much at all, I'm kind of hearing "just don't play this BG."

[Slim]

Originally posted by NecessaryWeevil:

@Slim I gotta say, given that your recommendations don't really involve relying on the BG's distinctive features very much at all, I'm kind of hearing "just don't play this BG."

BGs aren't really the strong suit of Wehr outside of gimmick units. The problem with an ability that costs 40 ammo and is solely limited to capturing pots oppose to a decent smoke screen call in for the same cost is that the call in is more versatile.

Couple that with the fact that Tigers in general are not that good. I mean, they have a lot of hitpoints to soak up damage but when do Panthers and Tigers not take damage? The same time when Matildas and Bulldozer Shermans don't take damage from mid game AT infantry. Tho, all those tanks are still easy to take down simply due to their speed and so many units that can easily pen them.

As Wehr, you need to be able to contend against Allied infantry and Grens cannot do that. You also need to invest in Wirbles because there is no other real options for Anti infantry. Might as well stick to Marders since you're already there. Breakthru BG just doesn't do much towards the strength of the Meta or the faction as a whole.

I mean, like ShodaN said, it's great to the the truppen out and to not have to invest in the Pgren building. But, frankly I think if you go that BG you need werfers because it doesn't offer anything else to deal with long range spam and dug in positions. Again, a napalm run that has a chance to miss AT guns to then have them immediately be recrewed by the nearby med truck doesn't really set the Allies back if they are setup on the point you need to take.

[Apofis]

Given that gren with mp40 will trade 1:1 vs US rifles and possilby win ... ifff you wont take damage on closing the gap somehow. They will also beat section cqc but rather lose to engineers and any upgraded inf with weapons.
They are okeish to defend your HMG at start and if you have good micro with it you will somehow get to luftwaffe/pz gren tier.

Now problem begin with mid to late game since those grens scale horribly, you can retrain them to jagers/pz grens at horrbile cost of manpower/exp and ammo for upgrading to mp40. Your ammo sink is not really good and put in same path as stoss call in. Truck is cute in team games but in 1v1 for price is rough call usually. Also with all m8s/humbers going around in the time you will get it probably not worth it. Salvaging is cool and thats it.
Rest is rather bad, if you want to play Tiger better to pick DAK since you at least do not suck for half of game time + you actually have a reason to stall in late game for such expensive unit.

[Slim]

Yeah, it's best not to bother upgrading Grens at all. It's a waste as your MGs should be your main focus as frontline in 3v3/4s. Grens are good at filling set up teams losses. And come to find out that Grens are currently bugged and cost 261 or 262 not 260.

[VeeDemo]

Still wild to me that grens cost more per model than pios, IMO if they shared a MP cost with them (I think its 22 for grens and 20 for pios?) so flame pio merging is atleast MP equal and then at vet 2 grens become a 7 man squad would be a decent idea

[ShodaN]

Since I don't see it mentioned here so far, the MP40 assault package also unlocks a free, timed sprint ability for the Grens. That's pretty good utility to have, because you can:

- close the distance on enemy squads faster
- more easily flank and chase weapon teams
- get into Panzerfaust range quickly and catch enemies off guard
- get to endangered squads faster for a quick merge

[Slim]

Originally posted by VeeDemo:

Still wild to me that grens cost more per model than pios, IMO if they shared a MP cost with them (I think its 22 for grens and 20 for pios?) so flame pio merging is atleast MP equal and then at vet 2 grens become a 7 man squad would be a decent idea

I just noticed the other day that Grens are more expensive than Riflemen too lol.

[mRo]

Originally posted by VeeDemo:

Still wild to me that grens cost more per model than pios, IMO if they shared a MP cost with them (I think its 22 for grens and 20 for pios?) so flame pio merging is atleast MP equal and then at vet 2 grens become a 7 man squad would be a decent idea

i think people 0verthink mp. u can use higher cost np.. differnce is the strats gotta change also. remember the games about unit prservation not military budgets lol

[Apofis]

Originally posted by mRo:

Originally posted by VeeDemo:

Still wild to me that grens cost more per model than pios, IMO if they shared a MP cost with them (I think its 22 for grens and 20 for pios?) so flame pio merging is atleast MP equal and then at vet 2 grens become a 7 man squad would be a decent idea

i think people 0verthink mp. u can use higher cost np.. differnce is the strats gotta change also. remember the games about unit prservation not military budgets lol

pff good luck when you are starved with mp. Not being able to progress to next tiers or get another unit is pretty huge. Not to mention grens have rather hard time draining opponent's mp