Wehrmacht Grenadiers - unnecessary - unloved

[LordAtrox]

Is there any point behind the Grenadier-Squad of the Wehrmacht?

These units are weak, do little damage, and offer no upgrade options unless you always use the same battle group with MP40s.
Basically, you build 1-2 Grenadier units, send them onto the field for 2-3 minutes, only to then immediately convert them into Panzergrenadiers or Jaegar.
On the other hand, since you initially don't have access to any infantry units, apart from the grenadiers, you have to build them in order to capture some points.
A unit that is of no use except for capturing points and being shot at until the player can lead Panzergrenadiers or Jaegar into battle is so stupid and untactical.

This makes the Grenadiers the most unnecessary and incompetent unit in the entire game. And I don't see any point behind it. Why Relic, why?

[DoDonPachi]

what are you going to do spam pios

volks were also bad in coh1 but guess what no player with a brain skipped them

[LordAtrox]

Originally posted by DoDonPachi:

what are you going to do spam pios

volks were also bad in coh1 but guess what no player with a brain skipped them

That's the problem. I have no alternative to this hopeless unit. In COH1 the Volksgrenadiers were still able to equip MP40s - without a battlegroup!!
In CoH2, both the Wehrmacht Grenadiers and the OKW Volksgrenadiers were better, did more damage AND were able to get weapon upgrades - again without a battlegroup.

The grenadiers in CoH3 are therefore the weakest - and thanks to the conversion - also the most unnecessary units, only being on the field for a few minutes. The Grenadiers do not have a long-term purpose like all other troops.

If the grenadiers could at least equip MP40s without having to resort to a battlegroup, then I wouldn't complain, because then the unit would have increased combat value and would have long-term use.

But the way it is right now, it has no tactical depth and is no fun.

[James Ryan]

Worst is the painted orc-picture, hate it.

[Pottatow]

Grens are the weakest infantry in the game period if they weren't Wehrmacht would be unstoppable.

Yet you can win engagements with grens because they are the only unit that can self sustain with vet 1. Start off by getting the rifles low and pull your grens out right before 60% no models should drop. While they are capping heal and reengage when you're at full health.

This isn't always going to work vs better players that know to just keep pushing, but I win a fair amount of early game fights this way. Ultimately yes Wer loses early game always just play defensive and don't fight unless you have an MG covering you.

In end game they are just used for panzerfaust in order to stop tanks from diving your Pak guns and heavy tanks.

[Trem]

Grenadiers are crap, except for their 'reinforce' ability. Use it to keep your HMGs and Flame-Pios up to strength.

MP 40's do help but you've identified that they are battlegroup exclusive.


Reinforce ability is really great when you get to Stosstrupps though. Can save a lot of manpower by feeding Grenadiers into the squad, including at HQ if you micro it enough. They gain the hitpoints and the G 43's when you do it, so all you have to do is pay for Grenadier reinforcements.



A few suggestions for improving Grenadiers (note: I'm not suggesting combining these all together haha!)

1) reduce the base cost of the unit (not reinforcement cost) to 240mp (and probably raise MP 40 upgrade to 60mun)
2) MP 40's could be non-battlegroup exclusive, but cost raised to 60mun. The Battlegroup merely unlocks Assault Grenades. Perhaps Grenades could also be made available to Pioniere.
3) Base Health could be raised by 5 hitpoints per man, and an additional +5 with Vet1 or Vet2.
4) Grenadiers could be able to construct Concrete Bunkers.
5) MP 40s non-battlegroup exclusive; the old MP 40 Battlegroup Unlock replaced with an le.MG 34 battlegroup unlock, perhaps with some CP requirements.
6) Buff the Grenadier Kar 98k's.
7) Instead of playing around with any existing things like above (MP 40's, or Gren performance), add in a non-battlegroup Rifle Grenade weapon upgrade. Should function more or less like the Granate-Buchse.39, but perhaps without smoke, instead having some kind of other special ammunition ability (HE delay, AT Blind, or Incendiary. Flare seems redundant considering what Jaegers get.)

Just some thoughts.

[Slim]

Grens can be somewhat viable in early game thru placement and opponents missteps. My biggest problem is how utterly terrible they scale into early mid game.

Then you have pioneers who are the absolute worst combat unit in the game by far. Only being able to beat scout squads in very strict circumstances. I dunno, but I dread to think how Relic will fix wehr if they do haha.

I mean, grens and pios were in a good place in coh2 imo. Grens scaled ok into late game and were still very much killable. While pioneers were a good deterrent to a single squad mg flank early game and weren't completely useless in a cc fight.

[Growlanser]

Originally posted by Pottatow:

Grens are the weakest infantry in the game

No, Italians are.

[LordAtrox]

Originally posted by Trem:

Grenadiers are crap, except for their 'reinforce' ability. Use it to keep your HMGs and Flame-Pios up to strength.

MP 40's do help but you've identified that they are battlegroup exclusive.


Reinforce ability is really great when you get to Stosstrupps though. Can save a lot of manpower by feeding Grenadiers into the squad, including at HQ if you micro it enough. They gain the hitpoints and the G 43's when you do it, so all you have to do is pay for Grenadier reinforcements.



A few suggestions for improving Grenadiers (note: I'm not suggesting combining these all together haha!)

1) reduce the base cost of the unit (not reinforcement cost) to 240mp (and probably raise MP 40 upgrade to 60mun)
2) MP 40's could be non-battlegroup exclusive, but cost raised to 60mun. The Battlegroup merely unlocks Assault Grenades. Perhaps Grenades could also be made available to Pioniere.
3) Base Health could be raised by 5 hitpoints per man, and an additional +5 with Vet1 or Vet2.
4) Grenadiers could be able to construct Concrete Bunkers.
5) MP 40s non-battlegroup exclusive; the old MP 40 Battlegroup Unlock replaced with an le.MG 34 battlegroup unlock, perhaps with some CP requirements.
6) Buff the Grenadier Kar 98k's.
7) Instead of playing around with any existing things like above (MP 40's, or Gren performance), add in a non-battlegroup Rifle Grenade weapon upgrade. Should function more or less like the Granate-Buchse.39, but perhaps without smoke, instead having some kind of other special ammunition ability (HE delay, AT Blind, or Incendiary. Flare seems redundant considering what Jaegers get.)

Just some thoughts.

Those are really good suggestions. Maybe some of these will be implemented... at some point.

[DoDonPachi]

Originally posted by Trem:

6) Buff the Grenadier Kar 98k's.

yea this is really all thats needed, a buff to the long range accuracy specifically

this would create the same dynamic as volks vs riflemen in coh1 which was perfect imo

[rat]

holy sh*t you have the mg42, grenadiers don't need to be godly good in the early game, that's why panzergrens and jaegers exist

[VeeDemo]

Normal grens are just cheap meat, use them as such. Thats why both of your next tech have things to replace them with

[X k X]

grenadiers should stay that way they are weak yeah but wehrmacht has other infantry troops which are pretty good so i dont think grenadiers being on par with those would be great

secondly stosstruppen are also crap is just 4 model squad but they arent coh 2 panzergrens tho

[Katitoff]

Originally posted by LordAtrox:

Originally posted by DoDonPachi:

what are you going to do spam pios

volks were also bad in coh1 but guess what no player with a brain skipped them

That's the problem. I have no alternative to this hopeless unit.

Don't worry, new battlegroup for wehr has 0cp infantry that's basically osttruppen of coh3, being so bad they reinforce automatically for free.

Wehr was never mainline infantry focused faction in any of the 3 games.
It was always combined arms faction that relied on HMGs, mortars and snipers to deal damage, while infantry soaked it.

CoH2 grens dealt damage, but they were glass cannons themselves and could not operate independently either.

[Slim]

Originally posted by Katitoff:

Originally posted by LordAtrox:

That's the problem. I have no alternative to this hopeless unit.

Don't worry, new battlegroup for wehr has 0cp infantry that's basically osttruppen of coh3, being so bad they reinforce automatically for free.

Wehr was never mainline infantry focused faction in any of the 3 games.
It was always combined arms faction that relied on HMGs, mortars and snipers to deal damage, while infantry soaked it.

CoH2 grens dealt damage, but they were glass cannons themselves and could not operate independently either.

Well that the thing, Coh2 grens could deal damage. This game they are a detriment due to investment to play catch up in the 'i need a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ unit that can contest something without dying instantly' game.

And what was Wehr given to back up the worst mainline in the game? The absolute worst combat unit in the game, the pioneer.

[rat]

Originally posted by Slim:

And what was Wehr given to back up the worst mainline in the game? The absolute worst combat unit best support weapon in the game, the pioneer mg42

ftfy

what's with noobs and not knowing how mgs work? It's like either they forget to build mainline infantry and build mgs or they only build mainline infantry. Not using a SUPPORT weapon to SUPPORT your infantry and wondering why your infantry is performing so poorly is like making a peanut butter jelly sandwich without bread and wondering why your hands are all messy.