Why USF struggles in Team Games

[DUI_Stryfe]

Obviously the devs are aware of the fact that the USF struggles in team games but I feel like they missed the mark a bit with this patch.

The USF in team games relies on a strong early and mid game. This was even more true in CoH2 but I think still carries over to CoH3 in many ways. You're goal is to use the early game and/or mid game to gain strong map control and push the German player onto their back foot a bit. You essentially have to force them to abandon their heavy tanks in favor of units that can come out sooner before you strangle them and win the match.

In CoH3 this task is significantly harder for several reasons. One of these is that you are late to get light vehicles by comparison. It seems the balance team has this in mind because the 3 biggest buffs were to the Quad HT, the Greyhound, and the Chaffee. It's so close but because these units come out later than the German ones they are still struggling to make an impact in the meta. Even with the current buffs they arrive on the field at a time where they just can't push the front line anymore. Newly buffed AT guns and MG's are out. Elite German infantry is surprisingly resilient vs them. And you still have to make your move without getting fousted. Combine that with the fact a Stug is probably just a few minutes away its a small window.

So what do we do? I think they best solution is to:
1) Change the free starting unit to an engineer unit. (always need an engi but only need scout if i'm going pathfinder open)
2) Allow WC51 to carry units (can't shoot)
3) Units in back of Weasel can shoot and it can still carry units after MG upgrade (adjust the cost)
4) Reduce greyhound to 30 fuel from 40.
5) Increase greyhound Main gun accuracy be a large amount. (Whiffs alot)
6) Double the range of the Canister shot
6) Increase range of Scott by 30%

And hell you can take back some of the buffs you gave this patch. You can delete the 75mm HT altogether if we are being honest.

[Grumpy]

I think the problem is more fundamental than the units you mention. Here are the US costs to get all of the team weapons plus grenades and the tech to upgrade rifles:

120/15 Barracks
120/15 WSC
100/30 Support Center (mg's)
200/45 Motor Pool (AT guns)
150/40 Bars
100/15 Grenades
790/160 total

Here is DAK
160/35 Light Support
100/40 Fire Support Elements
150 Grenades
410/75 total

The first 8 Rad is 95 fuel away, meaning that if you have equal map control, you will get your AT gun about the same time as your opponent gets their first 8 Rad. Sure, you can skip bars and possibly grenades to get an AT gun faster, but your opponent can also skip the Fire Support Elements.. It's bad enough trying to fight an 8 Rad with an AT gun, but if you build a Chaffee or Greyhound, then you will likely face armor when you have just AT guns

[Random_Target]

Originally posted by Grumpy:

I think the problem is more fundamental than the units you mention. Here are the US costs to get all of the team weapons plus grenades and the tech to upgrade rifles:

120/15 Barracks
120/15 WSC
100/30 Support Center (mg's)
200/45 Motor Pool (AT guns)
150/40 Bars
100/15 Grenades
790/160 total

Here is DAK
160/35 Light Support
100/40 Fire Support Elements
150 Grenades
410/75 total

The first 8 Rad is 95 fuel away, meaning that if you have equal map control, you will get your AT gun about the same time as your opponent gets their first 8 Rad. Sure, you can skip bars and possibly grenades to get an AT gun faster, but your opponent can also skip the Fire Support Elements.. It's bad enough trying to fight an 8 Rad with an AT gun, but if you build a Chaffee or Greyhound, then you will likely face armor when you have just AT guns

This explains a lot! I always felt as USF that everything cost a fortune, it's good to see the numbers in black and white. You have to invest an arm and a leg just to stay in contention against the DAK.

[-Cr4nk-]

Originally posted by Grumpy:

I think the problem is more fundamental than the units you mention. Here are the US costs to get all of the team weapons plus grenades and the tech to upgrade rifles:

120/15 Barracks
120/15 WSC
100/30 Support Center (mg's)
200/45 Motor Pool (AT guns)
150/40 Bars
100/15 Grenades
790/160 total

Here is DAK
160/35 Light Support
100/40 Fire Support Elements
150 Grenades
410/75 total

The first 8 Rad is 95 fuel away, meaning that if you have equal map control, you will get your AT gun about the same time as your opponent gets their first 8 Rad. Sure, you can skip bars and possibly grenades to get an AT gun faster, but your opponent can also skip the Fire Support Elements.. It's bad enough trying to fight an 8 Rad with an AT gun, but if you build a Chaffee or Greyhound, then you will likely face armor when you have just AT guns

That is a very onesided comparison. In the early game, rifles beat everything DAK has, especally the pgrens, that get the grenades. To make them even a 6 man squad (which still loses to bars on all distances), DAK has to spend 200 MP. And then, your teamweapons get flanked by rifles very easy. So what is you point?

[Katitoff]

Originally posted by Grumpy:

I think the problem is more fundamental than the units you mention. Here are the US costs to get all of the team weapons plus grenades and the tech to upgrade rifles:

120/15 Barracks
120/15 WSC
100/30 Support Center (mg's)
200/45 Motor Pool (AT guns)
150/40 Bars
100/15 Grenades
790/160 total

Here is DAK
160/35 Light Support
100/40 Fire Support Elements
150 Grenades
410/75 total

The first 8 Rad is 95 fuel away, meaning that if you have equal map control, you will get your AT gun about the same time as your opponent gets their first 8 Rad. Sure, you can skip bars and possibly grenades to get an AT gun faster, but your opponent can also skip the Fire Support Elements.. It's bad enough trying to fight an 8 Rad with an AT gun, but if you build a Chaffee or Greyhound, then you will likely face armor when you have just AT guns

Now do unit costs and upgrade costs.

Skill issue.

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by Random_Target:

Originally posted by Grumpy:

I think the problem is more fundamental than the units you mention. Here are the US costs to get all of the team weapons plus grenades and the tech to upgrade rifles:

120/15 Barracks
120/15 WSC
100/30 Support Center (mg's)
200/45 Motor Pool (AT guns)
150/40 Bars
100/15 Grenades
790/160 total

Here is DAK
160/35 Light Support
100/40 Fire Support Elements
150 Grenades
410/75 total

The first 8 Rad is 95 fuel away, meaning that if you have equal map control, you will get your AT gun about the same time as your opponent gets their first 8 Rad. Sure, you can skip bars and possibly grenades to get an AT gun faster, but your opponent can also skip the Fire Support Elements.. It's bad enough trying to fight an 8 Rad with an AT gun, but if you build a Chaffee or Greyhound, then you will likely face armor when you have just AT guns

This explains a lot! I always felt as USF that everything cost a fortune, it's good to see the numbers in black and white. You have to invest an arm and a leg just to stay in contention against the DAK.

The costs would be okay if they just convert the fuel to manpower. They made rifles really cheap compared to PGrens, and made it so they can compete later with the upgrades, but by attaching the fuel cost, you sometimes have to fight an 8 Rad without an AT gun and are going to be fighting tanks without one of your own.

Grenades should be 150 for US, bars should be 200 mp (no fuel), and the AT gun should be in the WSC. In general, infantry upgrades should cost just manpower for the upgrade tech and munitions for the actual upgrades. What Relic did by making US upgrades cost fuel wasn't asymmetric balance. You either dominate early as US or you lose.

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by -Cr4nk-:

Originally posted by Grumpy:

I think the problem is more fundamental than the units you mention. Here are the US costs to ..guns

That is a very onesided comparison. In the early game, rifles beat everything DAK has, especally the pgrens, that get the grenades. To make them even a 6 man squad (which still loses to bars on all distances), DAK has to spend 200 MP. And then, your teamweapons get flanked by rifles very easy. So what is you point?

This thread is about TEAM GAMES. You may have missed that. The fuel cost to get support weapons and infantry upgrades makes US struggle in team games. Games are usually good for the first few minutes, if you're fighting DAK, because a 260 mp Rifle is as good as a 300mp PGren, but then the 8 Rads show up..............

[ShodaN]

Originally posted by Grumpy:

Originally posted by -Cr4nk-:

That is a very onesided comparison. In the early game, rifles beat everything DAK has, especally the pgrens, that get the grenades. To make them even a 6 man squad (which still loses to bars on all distances), DAK has to spend 200 MP. And then, your teamweapons get flanked by rifles very easy. So what is you point?

This thread is about TEAM GAMES. You may have missed that. The fuel cost to get support weapons and infantry upgrades makes US struggle in team games. Games are usually good for the first few minutes, if you're fighting DAK, because a 260 mp Rifle is as good as a 300mp PGren, but then the 8 Rads show up..............

But aren't teamgames exactly the place, where having to make choices, is less impactful overall? With some basic coordination you can get to a lot of things in the most efficient way possible, without entirely lacking options as a team.

But sure, USF is the most choice heavy faction I'd say. You are never supposed to have everyhting right away, but instead need to decide what is more important. The longer a match goes on for, the more you can fill in the blanks.

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by ShodaN:

Originally posted by Grumpy:

This thread is about TEAM GAMES. You may have missed that. The fuel cost to get support weapons and infantry upgrades makes US struggle in team games. Games are usually good for the first few minutes, if you're fighting DAK, because a 260 mp Rifle is as good as a 300mp PGren, but then the 8 Rads show up..............

But aren't teamgames exactly the place, where having to make choices, is less impactful overall? With some basic coordination you can get to a lot of things in the most efficient way possible, without entirely lacking options as a team.

But sure, USF is the most choice heavy faction I'd say. You are never supposed to have everyhting right away, but instead need to decide what is more important. The longer a match goes on for, the more you can fill in the blanks.

Theoretically, yes it's about choice. But in this case, upgrading rifles so they can compete doesn't do anything to counter the 8 Rad, and skipping upgrades so I can get an AT gun doesn't help if the rifles lose their fights. It's only as US that I have to make these choices, and when I play US, it's choosing how I am going to lose.

The game just feels different as Wehr right now. I can easily decide how I want to attack and still be able to counter anything that I need to counter. DAK doesn't feel quite as good but still a lot better than US.

[Kronie]

USF doesn't struggle.
Spam MGs and GG you win.

DAK can't compete, its a long while before DAK gets any sort of mortar and if he does get Mortar he screwed himself from getting an 8rad.
DAK doesn't get MGs until his first building which he needs resources to build so spam MGs spam riflemen that are cheaper and destroy DAKs more expensive infantry and you've won the game.

DAK is legitimately weakest faction by far.

[DUI_Stryfe]

I think Grumpy and I are explaining the same thing with slightly different solutions. I agree though and mention it in the OP that things are coming out too late for how good they actually are. So you could make stuff cheaper and let USF tech faster, OR you can make the units themselves better.

I suggested to make the vehicles better but making them come out sooner will also do the trick. Either way works for me. Another idea is they could just take the fuel cost of the building upgrade (the sections addon) and ditch it. Make the upgrades after an extra 10 fuel.

This would make the Greyhound and the AT gun come out earlier (around Halftrack timing). Then just increase the fuel cost or build time of the Chaffee.

The USF lost a lot going from CoH2 to CoH3:
1) No more .50cal MG
2) WC51 worse
3) No M20
4) Lost the M15 HT
5) M8 Scott is trash
6) Whizzbang trash vs Calliope
7) Hellcat trash vs Jackson
8) No vehicle crews

And in exchange we got better Shermans and a dedicated sniper. I don't mind the game changing but I think relic needs to be aware that this can make a faction pretty limited. If you look at the most popular strategies that work you'll see that the common thread is:

Sniper play into Shermans

The two units that got better and everything else is just to keep you in the game for those to do the work.

But in talking to other US players and as Grumpy points out... there's a big dead spot in the US midgame that causes them to lose. Everything feels fine until i have to go Motor Pool or Tank Depot. And I'm bleeding out by the time a vehicle rolls off the lot.

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by Kronie:

USF doesn't struggle.
Spam MGs and GG you win.

DAK can't compete, its a long while before DAK gets any sort of mortar and if he does get Mortar he screwed himself from getting an 8rad.
DAK doesn't get MGs until his first building which he needs resources to build so spam MGs spam riflemen that are cheaper and destroy DAKs more expensive infantry and you've won the game.

DAK is legitimately weakest faction by far.

LOL, if it is the weakest, then why is it the only faction that you play?

[Kronie]

Originally posted by Grumpy:

LOL, if it is the weakest, then why is it the only faction that you play?

Because I prefer the underdogs, if I wanted strongest I'd have jumped over to the brits and spam AT infantry.

They are literally the weakest and have the least capabilities when it comes to responding to things.
Enemy spams MGs? GG DAK lost.
Enemy spams early light vehicles? GG DAK lost.

[DUI_Stryfe]

Originally posted by Kronie:

USF doesn't struggle.
Spam MGs and GG you win.

DAK can't compete, its a long while before DAK gets any sort of mortar and if he does get Mortar he screwed himself from getting an 8rad.
DAK doesn't get MGs until his first building which he needs resources to build so spam MGs spam riflemen that are cheaper and destroy DAKs more expensive infantry and you've won the game.

DAK is legitimately weakest faction by far.

You're an idiot. First off 1 halftrack and the whole MG spam is toast. Second Riflemen and MGs both require a building to be built. And its not the same building. Third what you're saying is not true just in general. Do you have any idea how rare it is for devs to admit a faction is "struggling" in team games. If they admit to it it's BAAADDD. It means it's bad enough that they can't pretend everything is fine and the USF has had 2 patches trying to fix the issue.

Honestly your issue is that you're trying to counter MGs with Mortars. That's not how it's done. It takes too long and they will just move the MG every minute or so and you'll be chasing your tail for half the game.

[ShodaN]

Originally posted by Grumpy:

Theoretically, yes it's about choice. But in this case, upgrading rifles so they can compete doesn't do anything to counter the 8 Rad, and skipping upgrades so I can get an AT gun doesn't help if the rifles lose their fights. It's only as US that I have to make these choices, and when I play US, it's choosing how I am going to lose.

The game just feels different as Wehr right now. I can easily decide how I want to attack and still be able to counter anything that I need to counter. DAK doesn't feel quite as good but still a lot better than US.

Compete against what exactly? You don't need to have BARs and grenades to win fights early. Not that you'd immediately have the munitions for it all as soon as you could technically get them anyways.

Besides this ties into battlegroup and support center choices too. There are other AT options, than having to put down a Motorpool just for an AT gun. There are also other infantry options so you can mix and match.

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by DUI_Stryfe:

I think Grumpy and I are explaining the same thing with slightly different solutions. I agree though and mention it in the OP that things are coming out too late for how good they actually are. So you could make stuff cheaper and let USF tech faster, OR you can make the units themselves better.
....
But in talking to other US players and as Grumpy points out... there's a big dead spot in the US midgame that causes them to lose. Everything feels fine until i have to go Motor Pool or Tank Depot. And I'm bleeding out by the time a vehicle rolls off the lot.

Yes, its the same problem. Either go T3 for an AT gun and possibly an armored car, but then have to fight a P4 with the AT gun and armored car, or lose so much map that you've lost by the time your Sherman comes out. I just think it would be easier to balance by making US more like the other three factions instead of it being funky.

I put my ideas into a mod called the "All American" mod and put it in the workshop. Please try it sometime and let me know what you think. In addition to these changes, I redid the Support Center because the exclusive upgrades are also a problem. If you try it and it's in a comp stomp, use Janne's Game Modes + extension with my mod. You'll find it to be much more fun than the un-modded version. In case you're worried about it being a hack, my mod just changes some of the values that the game uses. I don't know what Janne's mod does, but assume that it does the same.