Wehrmacht upgrading INFANTRY

[mayrc]

Can someone explain what i am missing here?

You build a Grenadier for 270 Manpower. Then you play with grenadier and acumulate EXP. Then you go onto tier 2 or 3 and you can convert your grens into jägers or Panzergrens for 140 and loose most if not ALL exp gained so far. So you spend a 410 in total for a unit that would cost 360 if you just build one new. So please where is the whole point?

[ionkiller]

I'd imagine the idea is to give your units more adaptability later on. Yes it's more expensive, but you would've (hopefully) gotten the value out of the unit throughout the match, whether that be merging them into other squads or managing to hold a few key points.

Of course this is all from theorycrafting in my head, but there is the case of zombie grenadiers. Getting a free squad of Grens out of a Med Bunker. Those could be turned into a much cheaper Jager/Panzergren squad.

(EDIT) Also if you get the tech upgrade for the infantry unit you want, they'd at the very least start at Vet 1, so thankfully that's not a total loss - though still sucks.

[Ostoia]

Pop cap. Instead of having a unit later in the game that is barely useful you can upgrade it to more powerful unit instead of having one powerful unit and one weak unit.

[Ostoia]

Originally posted by Von Krieg:

Originally posted by mayrc:

Can someone explain what i am missing here?

You build a Grenadier for 270 Manpower. Then you play with grenadier and acumulate EXP. Then you go onto tier 2 or 3 and you can convert your grens into jägers or Panzergrens for 140 and loose most if not ALL exp gained so far. So you spend a 410 in total for a unit that would cost 360 if you just build one new. So please where is the whole point?

This. This mechanics is so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ retarded ... What's the point paying extra point for the same unit when US just update / XP for almost cheaper cost.

What units can US update?

[mayrc]

Originally posted by Ostoia:

Pop cap. Instead of having a unit later in the game that is barely useful you can upgrade it to more powerful unit instead of having one powerful unit and one weak unit.

so you pay an EXTRA 50 Manpower to "reduce" your popcap? I mean vs decent players you never reach the max popcap. If you reach max Popcap then you wont game anyway.

[Kai]

The Wehrmacht having something to do with reinforcement focused 'war machine' would make sense if you could construct more stuff out in the open other than bunkers or nests, maybe bringing back reinforcements of buildings and more resistant to having a building breached? So make the Wehrmacht more effective at holding structures and territories if they successfully captured them.

As for the usual blobbing and spamming, making it so you can still target units inside smoke and partially see them inside smoke from a distance, but lower accuracy might fix things.

As it stands right now, smoke cuts off line of sight, yes that's how they work, but units hiding inside the smoke shouldn't have pure invisibility, instead they should be easily targeted but accuracy is horrible hence much lower direct damage and hit chance against them in there, but anything that can land a hit and cause AoE damage like mortars or high explosive tank rounds can shoot in the general direction and cause big damage as usual.

In actual 'smoke' usage, you use it to obstruct visuals between you and your enemy from a distance, you don't actually hide inside smoke screens since the density is reduced from them to you if you are inside the actual radius of the smoke.

So yes, making it so you can shoot in and out of smoke, but accuracy overall is reduced a ton on both parties unless AoE is involved is important as a balance tweak?

Maybe suppression won't work on units inside smoke, they recover and can retreat or flank more easily, but a hail of machine gunners can buzz around to hurt any units that isn't in cover inside the smoke still.

So in a way, smoke does not hide units, but allows units to be shot at in a 'general' vicinity' (like say attack ground in the center mass of the squad of a unit).

[Sabinox]

Originally posted by ionkiller:

I'd imagine the idea is to give your units more adaptability later on. Yes it's more expensive, but you would've (hopefully) gotten the value out of the unit throughout the match, whether that be merging them into other squads or managing to hold a few key points.

I think this is pretty much their idea. I don't think it is a perfect system, since it could be more rewarding to player. Maybe by lowering the converting cost with veterancy, where more veterancy equal lower price.

OP is looking at the convert system from the wrong perspective. Late game Grenadiers become obsolete(outside their reinforce utilities), so if you want better units due to the nature of low pop cap you can eighter throw away/kill your unit and then buy elite units, or you can convert them for a discounted price. You don't pay 410 for an elite squad, you pay 140 instead of 360 to get a new, better one.

Still, this doesn't really make much sense when brits can trash their lower tier tanks and recover their cost, then buy new ones.

[Evilstealer]

The whole infantry recall situation is bit complicated due to the whole wehr system being more complex than other factions.
Good players do pretty well as wehr faction, maybe not as linear as with other factions, but the "mid-late game comback" is real. So changing even something little might release another OP demon for everyone to complain about.

In these games "good players" switch grens to something else as soon as possible far from reaching pop cap. You need more powerful squads pronto, manpower shortage is the main issue even with these weird discounts.
And they manage to win with like 3 jaeger "main line" infantry squads, couple of pioneers and other different important tools. Like 2-3 inf squads less, than allies usually use.

Which gives me an idea that grens being so expensive for a utility squad, plus those additional costs to "upgrade" grens were reasonable design choices to slow wehr down, force them to manage scarce resourses, but reward this with powerfull infantry later.

Imagine wehr being like allies? 5 jaeger squads instead of 3. Or 3 jaeger squads with 2 gren squads from earlier to build covers, throw grenades that jaegers lack, or merge? Give them exp upgrade, and 5 schreck jaegers can rightclick on HMG like they don't care.
What's next? Nerf jaegers, reduce costs? You will recieve another USF faction with almost no unique qualities. This game is asymmetrical after all.

Imagine if exp would transfer, everyone would get T1 exp upgrade ASAP. Grens would start at least as vet 1 and with 25% exp bonus quickly boost to vet 2. Then recall for a fresh vet 2 jaegers or pgrens.
Not to mention, that grens have a very good free self-heal ability on vet 1, that restores squad to full health in about 3-4 seconds.
I bet this way no one would ever bother getting t2 and t3 vet upgrades even though they also buff vehicles.

[Katitoff]

Opportunity cost.

This allows you large infantry force = capping power early game and then you can exchange them for elites as needed.

[mayrc]

Originally posted by Sabinox:

Originally posted by ionkiller:

I'd imagine the idea is to give your units more adaptability later on. Yes it's more expensive, but you would've (hopefully) gotten the value out of the unit throughout the match, whether that be merging them into other squads or managing to hold a few key points.

I think this is pretty much their idea. I don't think it is a perfect system, since it could be more rewarding to player. Maybe by lowering the converting cost with veterancy, where more veterancy equal lower price.

OP is looking at the convert system from the wrong perspective. Late game Grenadiers become obsolete(outside their reinforce utilities), so if you want better units due to the nature of low pop cap you can eighter throw away/kill your unit and then buy elite units, or you can convert them for a discounted price. You don't pay 410 for an elite squad, you pay 140 instead of 360 to get a new, better one.

Still, this doesn't really make much sense when brits can trash their lower tier tanks and recover their cost, then buy new ones.

Well i am not sure if you look at it in the wrong perspectiv. To me it seems you are a classic Meta gamer who plays the favorite of them month (no offense meant realy as the majority of players do this). But if you look in depth on the situation then you should be aware that Wehrmacht should be able to be played WITHOUT t2. But that means no jägers. Wich in turn means that Grenadiers are the ONLY infantry with some AT capabilitys and even more importantly the only one with "Vehicle snares". Wich means that they are NOT obsolete in the late game. Quite the contratry in fact als AT guns are only good if you got snares.

So its CLEAR grens have a important place in the late game (if you are no meta player but try to play by skill).

However my point was that you PAY 50 Manpower for loosing all exp. And that is nonsense realy. If you keep all exp then it makes sense. As you could build grens early and then convert some of them into whatever tech route you are going and "KEEPING" your veterancy.

[ionkiller]

Originally posted by mayrc:

Well i am not sure if you look at it in the wrong perspectiv. To me it seems you are a classic Meta gamer who plays the favorite of them month (no offense meant realy as the majority of players do this).

You can look at my stats, I have a low win rate on DAK, and practically no experience on Wehrmacht. There's no wrong or biased perspective to be had, just the logic'd 'idea' behind why a faction has something. And I'd say the same for Sabinox, the game quite clearly doesn't want you to transfer all your grens to Jagers at first chance.

Originally posted by mayrc:

But if you look in depth on the situation then you should be aware that Wehrmacht should be able to be played WITHOUT t2. But that means no jägers. Wich in turn means that Grenadiers are the ONLY infantry with some AT capabilitys and even more importantly the only one with "Vehicle snares". Wich means that they are NOT obsolete in the late game. Quite the contratry in fact als AT guns are only good if you got snares.

Why? Why would you not Tech?

I mean just to reconfirm I'm not crazy, you wrote "You should be aware that Wehrmacht should be able to be played WITHOUT t2"

So Wehrmacht should rely on Grenadier's, MG42, Mortars and Snipers until late game?

Just so you're aware, there are TWO tier 2 buildings.

And anyway, throughout my lurking on the discord, I'm pretty sure people have found that in general, in all factions, that Anti Tank Guns aren't that great, especially considering how everyone but DAK has their own mobile AT infantry. There's basically been no reason for people to not spam Boys AT/Footguards, to not spam Paratroopers/Bazookas, to not spam Jagers, simply because they have passive AT that requires no further price cost (beyond the Munitions upgrade).

Course this isn't the conversation. But to put more emphasis on Grenadier's snares, when you have other munitions dumps to use - I don't know about that.

For example on DAK. I rather spend my Munitions on the Anti-Tank Skillplanes which can outright delete a tank/stop an assault, versus gradually wasting them throughout a match. I rather spend my munitions on defensive abilities that can outright slow the momentum for the enemy. I rather save my munitions for key moments in the match, instead of tapping a tank and hoping I made the right preparations to delete a tank.

And on the Allies end (or Wehrmacht), if I were them, I rather just spend my munitions with an Anti-Tank upgrade on infantry, instead of wasting it on a snare that won't confirm a kill (which is what happens oh-so often)

Originally posted by mayrc:

So its CLEAR grens have a important place in the late game (if you are no meta player but try to play by skill).

Wouldn't say 'clear' when Shermans are knockoff Tigers and delete infantry

Originally posted by mayrc:

However my point was that you PAY 50 Manpower for loosing all exp. And that is nonsense realy. If you keep all exp then it makes sense. As you could build grens early and then convert some of them into whatever tech route you are going and "KEEPING" your veterancy.

Where you getting this '50' Manpower thing? You're spending significantly more than 50 Manpower to turn a unit of Grenadiers into a specialized unit.

And anyway, I don't get where this 'point' is being made when we all already observed that you don't keep XP or anything. I already did say that you can start them at Vet 1 or delay even transfering them in the first place to give value to your other units.

[Rhapsody]

It's optional.

[Cesare]

You can start training 3/4 grenadiers, and wait for the fuel to build either luftwaffe or Panzer buildings, then you can convert em for cheap instead of training a whole new squad for full price. Unlike other factions where you actually gotta train new units where you re forced to maybe 2 engineers or 2 rifle sections, to save MP to train the other units you want. Wehrmacht is really adaptable to whats going on in the field

[ionkiller]

Originally posted by Cesare:

You can start training 3/4 grenadiers, and wait for the fuel to build either luftwaffe or Panzer buildings, then you can convert em for cheap instead of training a whole new squad for full price. Unlike other factions where you actually gotta train new units where you re forced to maybe 2 engineers or 2 rifle sections, to save MP to train the other units you want. Wehrmacht is really adaptable to whats going on in the field

Cesare they're more expensive as OP themselves and others have pointed out.

[mayrc]

Originally posted by ionkiller:

Originally posted by mayrc:

Well i am not sure if you look at it in the wrong perspectiv. To me it seems you are a classic Meta gamer who plays the favorite of them month (no offense meant realy as the majority of players do this).

You can look at my stats, I have a low win rate on DAK, and practically no experience on Wehrmacht. There's no wrong or biased perspective to be had, just the logic'd 'idea' behind why a faction has something. And I'd say the same for Sabinox, the game quite clearly doesn't want you to transfer all your grens to Jagers at first chance.

Originally posted by mayrc:

But if you look in depth on the situation then you should be aware that Wehrmacht should be able to be played WITHOUT t2. But that means no jägers. Wich in turn means that Grenadiers are the ONLY infantry with some AT capabilitys and even more importantly the only one with "Vehicle snares". Wich means that they are NOT obsolete in the late game. Quite the contratry in fact als AT guns are only good if you got snares.

Why? Why would you not Tech?

I mean just to reconfirm I'm not crazy, you wrote "You should be aware that Wehrmacht should be able to be played WITHOUT t2"

So Wehrmacht should rely on Grenadier's, MG42, Mortars and Snipers until late game?

Just so you're aware, there are TWO tier 2 buildings.

And anyway, throughout my lurking on the discord, I'm pretty sure people have found that in general, in all factions, that Anti Tank Guns aren't that great, especially considering how everyone but DAK has their own mobile AT infantry. There's basically been no reason for people to not spam Boys AT/Footguards, to not spam Paratroopers/Bazookas, to not spam Jagers, simply because they have passive AT that requires no further price cost (beyond the Munitions upgrade).

Course this isn't the conversation. But to put more emphasis on Grenadier's snares, when you have other munitions dumps to use - I don't know about that.

For example on DAK. I rather spend my Munitions on the Anti-Tank Skillplanes which can outright delete a tank/stop an assault, versus gradually wasting them throughout a match. I rather spend my munitions on defensive abilities that can outright slow the momentum for the enemy. I rather save my munitions for key moments in the match, instead of tapping a tank and hoping I made the right preparations to delete a tank.

And on the Allies end (or Wehrmacht), if I were them, I rather just spend my munitions with an Anti-Tank upgrade on infantry, instead of wasting it on a snare that won't confirm a kill (which is what happens oh-so often)

Originally posted by mayrc:

So its CLEAR grens have a important place in the late game (if you are no meta player but try to play by skill).

Wouldn't say 'clear' when Shermans are knockoff Tigers and delete infantry

Originally posted by mayrc:

However my point was that you PAY 50 Manpower for loosing all exp. And that is nonsense realy. If you keep all exp then it makes sense. As you could build grens early and then convert some of them into whatever tech route you are going and "KEEPING" your veterancy.

Where you getting this '50' Manpower thing? You're spending significantly more than 50 Manpower to turn a unit of Grenadiers into a specialized unit.

And anyway, I don't get where this 'point' is being made when we all already observed that you don't keep XP or anything. I already did say that you can start them at Vet 1 or delay even transfering them in the first place to give value to your other units.

As i said i am talking from a NON Meta perspective. If you follow the Meta gaming then just blob AT infantry. You are right. 1 bad patch and you are a noob again till you find a new cheese meta. And once game balances out more and cheese metas get more and more rare.... you are left with a below average skill.

That 50 manpower comes from me doing math. 270 for a fresh grenadier. 140 for upgrade makes 410 manpower. compared to 360 for new panzergrenadiers for example.
So netto you spend 50 more manpower for the exact SAME result.

What i am talking about is making theses 50 manpower pay off in some way. Best would be to retain veterancy.

[Tenshin51]

Also Grenadier need to be fully reinforce in order for them to transfer to a higher tier unit so another cost of MP just to make Grenadier a higher tier.

Also Grenadier need to be near to structure zone were they can be transfer to a higher tier unit.

It seems far better to just recruit a new unit of Jager or Panzergrenadier then have a Grenadier around to quickly reinforce Panzer and Jager w/ cheap MP.