Panzergrenadier vs Infantry Section - tests

[Demonic Spoon]

Hello folks -

I decided to run some tests using Cheat Commands Mod and a test range map. I've been hearing a lot of people talking about Infantry Section and Panzergrenadier performance, but COH combat is messy enough that it's really hard to tell without testing it yourself.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14_m9zfdFU_E1iqEaKiyO2Ta2-_7pv0_E_0AesV8XkLA

At midrange, IS and Panzergrens are roughly evenly matched

At close range, Panzergrens win fights handily, even when IS are benefitting from their vet1 bonus and Panzergrens are not.

Boys AT rifles make the IS significantly worse against infantry, but not completely incompetent

Focus Fire on Panzergrenadiers is extremely good and seems to have no downsides, not even a cooldown. In my tests I only activated it once, but using it constantly could give Panzergrens a significant boost

Panzergrens with combined arms active absolutely demolish infantry sections.

Infantry Sections training center upgrade seems to help a bit, but panzergrens with CA still win

Vet 3 seems to help Panzergrens more than IS - their victory margin goes up when both are vet 3

IS generally beat Panzergrens at long range consistently, but if the DAK player has Combined Arms active and repeatedly spams Focus Fire, Panzergrens will win

From a strategic perspective, here's what this means.

For the British player, you want to keep at range as much as possible. Abuse your vet1 ability to focus-fire charging squads, because if you let them get close, they will win. Additionally, if the DAK player has the Combined Arms bonus active, you absolutely have to deter or destroy whatever is providing it - Panzergrens with Combined Arms are terrifyingly strong.

As a DAK player, you should close the distance to midrange at least. This is roughly about 10 sandbag sections in length. Additionally, you should use the abilities you have to buff your panzergrens - Focus Fire is free and extremely strong. Combined Arms is ridiculously powerful and the CA radius is pretty long, so do your best to have it active in any major infantry fights. If you do find yourself in a long-range skirmish, you can still beat Infantry Sections as long as you spam Focus Fire on cooldown.

[Ostoia]

But DAK is so weak!!!! Weakest faction. Brits only need to spam IS to win!!!! Axis overnerfed. /S

[Katitoff]

Originally posted by Ostoia:

But DAK is so weak!!!! Weakest faction. Brits only need to spam IS to win!!!! Axis overnerfed. /S

Well, simulated tests and actual gameplay are 2 different worlds.

Blob of recon tommies will melt PGs on approach and outshoot them in cover while inflicting much greater attrition then they are able to receive in return.

Dingo can wipe effortelessly 250 providing buff, BOYS section can appear in 2nd encounter.
USF can outcap DAK with PF spam and then blast them out of the game with M16 quad which DAK has no answer to(Pjagers are not counter, they are at best deterent and easy to chase away).

To win as DAK, you are forced to blob and constantly move in and attack, if you let go, you will lose.

[Demonic Spoon]

Originally posted by Katitoff:

Originally posted by Ostoia:

But DAK is so weak!!!! Weakest faction. Brits only need to spam IS to win!!!! Axis overnerfed. /S

Well, simulated tests and actual gameplay are 2 different worlds.

Blob of recon tommies will melt PGs on approach and outshoot them in cover while inflicting much greater attrition then they are able to receive in return.

Dingo can wipe effortelessly 250 providing buff, BOYS section can appear in 2nd encounter.
USF can outcap DAK with PF spam and then blast them out of the game with M16 quad which DAK has no answer to(Pjagers are not counter, they are at best deterent and easy to chase away).

To win as DAK, you are forced to blob and constantly move in and attack, if you let go, you will lose.

Yes. Let's not oversimplify things and imply that empirical tests match actual gameplay.

That said, I do think these tests demonstrate that in a game with so many variables in play as CoH, it's legitimately extremely challenging to figure out how units perform and which units beat which other units.

When discussing balance, it's always important to understand the limitations of your own perceptions which is why tests like these are valuable. CoH is an extremely hard game to fully understand, and when it feels like you're getting stomped by something, you should always be aware of the possibility that you're just not fully understanding something.

This doesn't mean I think the game is fully balanced - the complexity means that getting the balance exactly right is extraordinarily challenging.

[Katitoff]

And this is why I don't hold void tests as a gospel, they can be an indicator of units strengths and weaknesses depending on range, but there is too many variables regarding if you are able to put yourself in favorable position and how opponent will respond to it and what bo he has.

That being said, I definitely do use PGs of DAK at long range way too often.

[Ostoia]

Originally posted by Katitoff:

Originally posted by Ostoia:

But DAK is so weak!!!! Weakest faction. Brits only need to spam IS to win!!!! Axis overnerfed. /S

Well, simulated tests and actual gameplay are 2 different worlds.

Blob of recon tommies will melt PGs on approach and outshoot them in cover while inflicting much greater attrition then they are able to receive in return.

Dingo can wipe effortelessly 250 providing buff, BOYS section can appear in 2nd encounter.
USF can outcap DAK with PF spam and then blast them out of the game with M16 quad which DAK has no answer to(Pjagers are not counter, they are at best deterent and easy to chase away).

To win as DAK, you are forced to blob and constantly move in and attack, if you let go, you will lose.

At the same time IS will not be able to attack properly because they have to stay in long range.
Dingo is squishy as hell, just try focusing it and its lost manpower pretty quickly.
If you have noticed, boys at rifles actually significantly reduces ant infantry power of IS. They are are threat to your halftruck sure, but simply keep it in the back, so IS either are forced to close range to reach it, giving you the advantage or are forced to fight PG with combined arms buff which will not end well for IS.

[Kronie]

Since when have you heard about Pzgrens and infantry sections?
The issue is the fact that Royal Engineers are far stronger than Pzgrens, and with infantry sections they can spam Boys destroy your tanks while putting up a ridiculous fight against your infantry WHILE costing far less Manpower.

The issue here is you're putting a 1:1 fight, without realizing that Pzgrens cost way more than infantry sections while also not being able to do half the things Infantry sections can do, like turn into an army capable of destroying all tanks on the map.
Infantry sections are so much cheaper that you will be able to defeat Pzgrens through sheer numbers given the fact they cost substantially less.

Or just bring out Royal Engineers, they melt Pzgrens and are actually the real issue.

[Demonic Spoon]

Originally posted by Kronie:

Since when have you heard about Pzgrens and infantry sections?
The issue is the fact that Royal Engineers are far stronger than Pzgrens, and with infantry sections they can spam Boys destroy your tanks while putting up a ridiculous fight against your infantry WHILE costing far less Manpower.

The issue here is you're putting a 1:1 fight, without realizing that Pzgrens cost way more than infantry sections while also not being able to do half the things Infantry sections can do, like turn into an army capable of destroying all tanks on the map.
Infantry sections are so much cheaper that you will be able to defeat Pzgrens through sheer numbers given the fact they cost substantially less.

Or just bring out Royal Engineers, they melt Pzgrens and are actually the real issue.

I think you're missing the point of this post. The point here is not to make some broad statement about balance (In fact as I said in one of my replies, I'm extremely hesitant to do that because balance is complicated). The point here is to inject some facts because, while doing the tests, I was shocked several times and never expected certain matchups to go a certain way.

I have a secondary goal of explaining how complicated CoH combat can be and how it can be difficult to draw assertions from anecdotes.

[Kronie]

Originally posted by Demonic Spoon:

I think you're missing the point of this post. The point here is not to make some broad statement about balance (In fact as I said in one of my replies, I'm extremely hesitant to do that because balance is complicated). The point here is to inject some facts because, while doing the tests, I was shocked several times and never expected certain matchups to go a certain way.

Facts can be very misleading when you don't bring in some much needed context.
Like how 1 unit costs substantially more Manpower.
But is also substantially less flexible and becomes obsolete by middle and late game when vehicles show up while its much cheaper counterpart is able to remain extremely relevant and even game changing during middle and late game by the fact they can be equipped Boys Rifles.

Although like stated before, the biggest issue are Royal Engineers that dominate the early game against DAK, if you're going to do another test do it on Royal Engineers vs Pzgrens.

[Baby Faced Finster]

Nice work with some interesting insights.

[Many-Named]

Originally posted by Demonic Spoon:

For the British player, you want to keep at range as much as possible.

I am a british main btw, I don't use other nations atm as I am still learning the game but this advice is the exact opposite of what I've noticed.

Royal engineers melt other infantry at close range, and with the right conditions can completely dominate a fight, sometimes even vs 2 units. By the time more specialized troops roll in you will still have royal engi's roaming around and by the time they die (if they do) there will be armor and off map arty and planes. Not sure if the advice is of much use then.

Appreciate the effort put in the OP post btw

[Demonic Spoon]

Originally posted by Many-Named:

Originally posted by Demonic Spoon:

For the British player, you want to keep at range as much as possible.

I am a british main btw, I don't use other nations atm as I am still learning the game but this advice is the exact opposite of what I've noticed.

Royal engineers melt other infantry at close range, and with the right conditions can completely dominate a fight, sometimes even vs 2 units. By the time more specialized troops roll in you will still have royal engi's roaming around and by the time they die (if they do) there will be armor and off map arty and planes. Not sure if the advice is of much use then.

Appreciate the effort put in the OP post btw

I think you're misunderstanding. The advice in the OP specifically refers to micromanaging infantry sections; UKF definitely has a pile of other troops (sappers, foot guards, thompson gurkhas, commandos...) that want to be close up.

[Trem]

Originally posted by Ostoia:

But DAK is so weak!!!! Weakest faction. Brits only need to spam IS to win!!!! Axis overnerfed. /S

I would hope Panzergrenadiere would beat Infantry Sections....
They do cost 300mp instead of 260mp, after all

[mikec_81]

Originally posted by Trem:

Originally posted by Ostoia:

But DAK is so weak!!!! Weakest faction. Brits only need to spam IS to win!!!! Axis overnerfed. /S

I would hope Panzergrenadiere would beat Infantry Sections....
They do cost 300mp instead of 260mp, after all

You shouldn't look at units in isolation. They have to be taken into account in a holistic fashion with respect to how they fit into the faction's strengths and weaknesses, and how well they scale with veterancy, upgrades, and other buffs. Given the DAK's wide and powerful arsenal of vehicles and tanks, you should consistently be able to give your Combined Arms buff to your PGrens from mid game onwards at which point they shred, especially if they can get access to both the Breda and the MG 34. I haven't done the tests but they can 1 v 1 fully upgraded US double BAR squads.