Allright, Devs, We Need To Talk About How Ridiculously Overtuned this game is.

[Teyar]

So, I'm an older player - Nearly 40. But I've been at high intensity action games since the atari. I'm not going to go on about TeH hArDcOrE Sub 5% Clear Rate Achievements, just trying to say I'm not some salt driven teenager here.

The sheer amount of enemies in play is extreme - Upwards of a dozen hitscanners at a time, with melee pressure units, that take no frontal damage, with a rapidly teleporting harrier, and an artillery piece, that also has rapid fire attacks - Each one of these has counterplay, and skills in use can nullify one or a small AoE's worth of them at a time, but the amount of pressure applied is beyond the ability to simply visually process, let alone actually engage with.

Some of that is absolutely design intention - When all goes right and I'm playing at absolute peak, fantastic, I can chew through a room and come out at full shields with everything having flowed smoothly. One slip up and it punishes to the degree that I swear I'm going from 100 to 0 in under two seconds.

I'm sure there's a measure of reflex and age and git gud to be shouted at me by some - But hey. I'm an older guy, and I'd had a couple basic clears under my belt, so I decided to slow the game down and actually examine it. Cheat Engine's a neat program - One checkbox and I turn the game down to 70% speed. Can't actually edit the numbers with my level of experience with it, by the by - I've filled the metaprogression board almost all the way before even cracking it open.

So what do we see when slowing the game down enough things can be tracked?
Some of these basic mooks are doing 25-50% on a tick. Some of them are doing such aggressive tracking and following, even with engineer's C-ball link and circling them in place, going that they're outright Ps1 ski-spinning and keeping perfect tracking. The first boss's laser is fascinating under this environment - If you move in a precise way at an exact speed I could only feel out, you can stay between the beams, barely. But when it wants to chase, it will catch up, period.

There's near to no hitstun in the game, outside of heavy weapons. The sumo units stick to you like glue and do the same kind of perfect tracking. The dodge-roll approach on the basic melee units in the third zone is absurdly, like insanely fast, dealing damage on their next animation just as quick. The boss of the third zone's raising and lowering platforms happen in a chaotic, indecipherable pattern, with every bit of the fight pushing your attention upwards just to keep track of whats going on. The weak point is only visible from inside the actively shredding your health zone of the tesla coils on the first phase, and they're impossible to double jump / dash over.

It's like you guys played nothing but Dante Must Die mode or its equivalent on every game in your childhood and built to that level on every stage of the design. Your clear rates for most of the characters is down around 3% last I looked. I don't envy the task of trying to figure out a way to balance that all down to sane levels, it's all overlapping and interlinking pieces keeping the pressure on at all points. But you gotta tone this ♥♥♥♥ down, unless you want the ultra-niche triple deluxe hardcore people to ever clear this thing.

And with all those nitpicks at the edges of the design that shape up into some absurd overtuning, then we get to The CEO. Ground waves, air beams, multiple decoys, turrets, and actively consuming the main power source for the player, dodging out of the way, leaving a silouette that's difficult to pick out on a clear screen, let alone the noise filled moments - It's all just too much, especially with her genuinely absurd levels of HP. With that number of tricks in her kit, and the amount of speed, she should be a glass cannon, not a two phase kryptonian brick dropped into this combat system.

My hands hurt. Good game. Please lighten it up a touch.

[SNWMN]

I currently have a walkthrough up in guides, but aside from borked audio, it has what I consider to be cruisy implants. I'm playing the game a bunch right now on streams trying to get a run with worse implants so that I can make a guide for when things don't go your way.

Suffice it to say that I haven't yet encountered a run I don't think is winnable, and I think that the reason neuro feels so hard is that your build starts to really matter.

once you figure out the best way to build your guys though, I'd say that just under 30 mins is the average time to complete a run on neuro

[Phoenix21891]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Hazard:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von JmonDmon:

Well this thread put me off

It shouldnt the game is superb and if you can beat Doom Eternal on any dofficulty you will be able to beat this

Yeah, no.

Doom Eternal on Ultra Violence is far, far easier than this game on Deep Dive. Deadlink demands that you adhere to a more restrictive, less forgiving gameplay loop with RNG elements thrown in. Neuromancy in Deadlink makes Doom Eternal's Nightmare difficulty look like child's play.

[1mbalanced]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Phoenix21891:

Neuromancy in Deadlink makes Doom Eternal's Nightmare difficulty look like child's play.

It really depends on the build. Personally, trying to speedrun neuromancy, i had to reroll starting secondary weapon until i have legendary firebug or locust swarm, also % damage and crit damage lvl 4 implants are mandatory for a good run.
However there are no builds in Doom Eternal, thus no luck element, and it is way more skill-related to beat nightmare difficulty.

[SNWMN]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Phoenix21891:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Hazard:

It shouldnt the game is superb and if you can beat Doom Eternal on any dofficulty you will be able to beat this

Yeah, no.

Doom Eternal on Ultra Violence is far, far easier than this game on Deep Dive. Deadlink demands that you adhere to a more restrictive, less forgiving gameplay loop with RNG elements thrown in. Neuromancy in Deadlink makes Doom Eternal's Nightmare difficulty look like child's play.

Big hard disagree. tons of hours in doom eternal on nightmare, tons of hours in deadlink. Deadlink feels way more forgiving than doom eternal once you get it's systems down, just because you have lower cooldowns that do more than doom eternal, and the ability to augment with implants. I think if anything deadlink has a higher skill floor than doom eternal, but is ultimately easier once you come to understand the huge number of tools it's giving you

[Hazard]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SNWMN:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Phoenix21891:

Yeah, no.

Doom Eternal on Ultra Violence is far, far easier than this game on Deep Dive. Deadlink demands that you adhere to a more restrictive, less forgiving gameplay loop with RNG elements thrown in. Neuromancy in Deadlink makes Doom Eternal's Nightmare difficulty look like child's play.

Big hard disagree. tons of hours in doom eternal on nightmare, tons of hours in deadlink. Deadlink feels way more forgiving than doom eternal once you get it's systems down, just because you have lower cooldowns that do more than doom eternal, and the ability to augment with implants. I think if anything deadlink has a higher skill floor than doom eternal, but is ultimately easier once you come to understand the huge number of tools it's giving you

Deadlink hardest is way easier than Doom hardest I agree too

[Phoenix21891]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SNWMN:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Phoenix21891:

Yeah, no.

Doom Eternal on Ultra Violence is far, far easier than this game on Deep Dive. Deadlink demands that you adhere to a more restrictive, less forgiving gameplay loop with RNG elements thrown in. Neuromancy in Deadlink makes Doom Eternal's Nightmare difficulty look like child's play.

Big hard disagree. tons of hours in doom eternal on nightmare, tons of hours in deadlink. Deadlink feels way more forgiving than doom eternal once you get it's systems down, just because you have lower cooldowns that do more than doom eternal, and the ability to augment with implants. I think if anything deadlink has a higher skill floor than doom eternal, but is ultimately easier once you come to understand the huge number of tools it's giving you

We'll agree to disagree then. Not that Doom Eternal on Nightmare is easy by any means, but I had way less trouble with that than I do this game. Maybe it's just a "me" thing, but I couldn't tell you why.

[Madder Red]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Phoenix21891:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SNWMN:

Big hard disagree. tons of hours in doom eternal on nightmare, tons of hours in deadlink. Deadlink feels way more forgiving than doom eternal once you get it's systems down, just because you have lower cooldowns that do more than doom eternal, and the ability to augment with implants. I think if anything deadlink has a higher skill floor than doom eternal, but is ultimately easier once you come to understand the huge number of tools it's giving you

We'll agree to disagree then. Not that Doom Eternal on Nightmare is easy by any means, but I had way less trouble with that than I do this game. Maybe it's just a "me" thing, but I couldn't tell you why.

Because doom doesnt have any roguelite elements to it.

[Five Pebbles]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Phoenix21891:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Hazard:

It shouldnt the game is superb and if you can beat Doom Eternal on any dofficulty you will be able to beat this

Yeah, no.

Doom Eternal on Ultra Violence is far, far easier than this game on Deep Dive. Deadlink demands that you adhere to a more restrictive, less forgiving gameplay loop with RNG elements thrown in. Neuromancy in Deadlink makes Doom Eternal's Nightmare difficulty look like child's play.

Biggest L I've ever seen. If Deadlink at Deep Dive is harder for you compared to Doom Eternal on nightmare. Then the only thing that spells out is that you're total garbage when it comes to the Roguelike elements of the game. Even the greatest Deadlink player would struggle if you let a monkey choose his implants and where to put it. Not to mention every other upgrades, Heavy Weapon, Primary, Neuroboost.

[Belbe's Phyrexian Toy Collection]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Teyar:

So, I'm an older player - Nearly 40. But I've been at high intensity action games since the atari. I'm not going to go on about TeH hArDcOrE Sub 5% Clear Rate Achievements, just trying to say I'm not some salt driven teenager here.

The sheer amount of enemies in play is extreme - Upwards of a dozen hitscanners at a time, with melee pressure units, that take no frontal damage, with a rapidly teleporting harrier, and an artillery piece, that also has rapid fire attacks - Each one of these has counterplay, and skills in use can nullify one or a small AoE's worth of them at a time, but the amount of pressure applied is beyond the ability to simply visually process, let alone actually engage with.

Some of that is absolutely design intention - When all goes right and I'm playing at absolute peak, fantastic, I can chew through a room and come out at full shields with everything having flowed smoothly. One slip up and it punishes to the degree that I swear I'm going from 100 to 0 in under two seconds.

I'm sure there's a measure of reflex and age and git gud to be shouted at me by some - But hey. I'm an older guy, and I'd had a couple basic clears under my belt, so I decided to slow the game down and actually examine it. Cheat Engine's a neat program - One checkbox and I turn the game down to 70% speed. Can't actually edit the numbers with my level of experience with it, by the by - I've filled the metaprogression board almost all the way before even cracking it open.

So what do we see when slowing the game down enough things can be tracked?
Some of these basic mooks are doing 25-50% on a tick. Some of them are doing such aggressive tracking and following, even with engineer's C-ball link and circling them in place, going that they're outright Ps1 ski-spinning and keeping perfect tracking. The first boss's laser is fascinating under this environment - If you move in a precise way at an exact speed I could only feel out, you can stay between the beams, barely. But when it wants to chase, it will catch up, period.

There's near to no hitstun in the game, outside of heavy weapons. The sumo units stick to you like glue and do the same kind of perfect tracking. The dodge-roll approach on the basic melee units in the third zone is absurdly, like insanely fast, dealing damage on their next animation just as quick. The boss of the third zone's raising and lowering platforms happen in a chaotic, indecipherable pattern, with every bit of the fight pushing your attention upwards just to keep track of whats going on. The weak point is only visible from inside the actively shredding your health zone of the tesla coils on the first phase, and they're impossible to double jump / dash over.

It's like you guys played nothing but Dante Must Die mode or its equivalent on every game in your childhood and built to that level on every stage of the design. Your clear rates for most of the characters is down around 3% last I looked. I don't envy the task of trying to figure out a way to balance that all down to sane levels, it's all overlapping and interlinking pieces keeping the pressure on at all points. But you gotta tone this ♥♥♥♥ down, unless you want the ultra-niche triple deluxe hardcore people to ever clear this thing.

And with all those nitpicks at the edges of the design that shape up into some absurd overtuning, then we get to The CEO. Ground waves, air beams, multiple decoys, turrets, and actively consuming the main power source for the player, dodging out of the way, leaving a silouette that's difficult to pick out on a clear screen, let alone the noise filled moments - It's all just too much, especially with her genuinely absurd levels of HP. With that number of tricks in her kit, and the amount of speed, she should be a glass cannon, not a two phase kryptonian brick dropped into this combat system.

My hands hurt. Good game. Please lighten it up a touch.

skill issue

[Belbe's Phyrexian Toy Collection]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Phoenix21891:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SNWMN:

Big hard disagree. tons of hours in doom eternal on nightmare, tons of hours in deadlink. Deadlink feels way more forgiving than doom eternal once you get it's systems down, just because you have lower cooldowns that do more than doom eternal, and the ability to augment with implants. I think if anything deadlink has a higher skill floor than doom eternal, but is ultimately easier once you come to understand the huge number of tools it's giving you

We'll agree to disagree then. Not that Doom Eternal on Nightmare is easy by any means, but I had way less trouble with that than I do this game. Maybe it's just a "me" thing, but I couldn't tell you why.

DOOM Eternal Nightmare/UNM are trivially easy if you have even just rudimentary arena shooter skills. the game is so easy to the point of boredom because id cannot make engaging or challenging combats and you have to go to the community for fan levels to actually find stuff that makes you use your brain.

deadlink is also a very approachable arena shooter that is extremely trivial with even just a little game knowledge, you don't even need fundamentals. learn how implants interact and you'll start finding the game to be much easier, good luck out there agent.

[Belbe's Phyrexian Toy Collection]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Five Pebbles:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Phoenix21891:

Yeah, no.

Doom Eternal on Ultra Violence is far, far easier than this game on Deep Dive. Deadlink demands that you adhere to a more restrictive, less forgiving gameplay loop with RNG elements thrown in. Neuromancy in Deadlink makes Doom Eternal's Nightmare difficulty look like child's play.

Biggest L I've ever seen. If Deadlink at Deep Dive is harder for you compared to Doom Eternal on nightmare. Then the only thing that spells out is that you're total garbage when it comes to the Roguelike elements of the game. Even the greatest Deadlink player would struggle if you let a monkey choose his implants and where to put it. Not to mention every other upgrades, Heavy Weapon, Primary, Neuroboost.

this is patently false, picking bad choices does not make deadlink unapproachable difficulty wise, sure your run will take like 20 minutes IGT instead of 12 - 15 on neuromancy but the fundamentals asked of the player are not particularly intense in deadlink.

[Belbe's Phyrexian Toy Collection]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mr. No_Effs_Given:

Even beating the game several times, i find the last area particularly overtuned compared to the rest, especially the last boss. It's not a fun fight tbh.

last area is by far easier than the other areas

[Belbe's Phyrexian Toy Collection]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Hans ✙:

Absolutely yes. Dark souls kids just cant take anything against difficulty. Bullet sponges and shields are not fun or challenging, theyre annoying and have nothing to do with challenge.

please learn how to pick implants; the enemies in deadlink are extremely squishy. also dark souls isn't hard or challenging... so idk what you're getting at.

[Mr. No_Effs_Given]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von 「キングインルスト」:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mr. No_Effs_Given:

Even beating the game several times, i find the last area particularly overtuned compared to the rest, especially the last boss. It's not a fun fight tbh.

last area is by far easier than the other areas

Well, for me it isn't. To each their own.

[Teyar]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Mr. No_Effs_Given:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von 「キングインルスト」:

last area is by far easier than the other areas

Well, for me it isn't. To each their own.

Ignore the salty lunatic. Anyone who puts five reply posts in a row making a show of being a toxic gamer-brained-elitist can be discarded out of hand.