Allright, Devs, We Need To Talk About How Ridiculously Overtuned this game is.

[Teyar]

So, I'm an older player - Nearly 40. But I've been at high intensity action games since the atari. I'm not going to go on about TeH hArDcOrE Sub 5% Clear Rate Achievements, just trying to say I'm not some salt driven teenager here.

The sheer amount of enemies in play is extreme - Upwards of a dozen hitscanners at a time, with melee pressure units, that take no frontal damage, with a rapidly teleporting harrier, and an artillery piece, that also has rapid fire attacks - Each one of these has counterplay, and skills in use can nullify one or a small AoE's worth of them at a time, but the amount of pressure applied is beyond the ability to simply visually process, let alone actually engage with.

Some of that is absolutely design intention - When all goes right and I'm playing at absolute peak, fantastic, I can chew through a room and come out at full shields with everything having flowed smoothly. One slip up and it punishes to the degree that I swear I'm going from 100 to 0 in under two seconds.

I'm sure there's a measure of reflex and age and git gud to be shouted at me by some - But hey. I'm an older guy, and I'd had a couple basic clears under my belt, so I decided to slow the game down and actually examine it. Cheat Engine's a neat program - One checkbox and I turn the game down to 70% speed. Can't actually edit the numbers with my level of experience with it, by the by - I've filled the metaprogression board almost all the way before even cracking it open.

So what do we see when slowing the game down enough things can be tracked?
Some of these basic mooks are doing 25-50% on a tick. Some of them are doing such aggressive tracking and following, even with engineer's C-ball link and circling them in place, going that they're outright Ps1 ski-spinning and keeping perfect tracking. The first boss's laser is fascinating under this environment - If you move in a precise way at an exact speed I could only feel out, you can stay between the beams, barely. But when it wants to chase, it will catch up, period.

There's near to no hitstun in the game, outside of heavy weapons. The sumo units stick to you like glue and do the same kind of perfect tracking. The dodge-roll approach on the basic melee units in the third zone is absurdly, like insanely fast, dealing damage on their next animation just as quick. The boss of the third zone's raising and lowering platforms happen in a chaotic, indecipherable pattern, with every bit of the fight pushing your attention upwards just to keep track of whats going on. The weak point is only visible from inside the actively shredding your health zone of the tesla coils on the first phase, and they're impossible to double jump / dash over.

It's like you guys played nothing but Dante Must Die mode or its equivalent on every game in your childhood and built to that level on every stage of the design. Your clear rates for most of the characters is down around 3% last I looked. I don't envy the task of trying to figure out a way to balance that all down to sane levels, it's all overlapping and interlinking pieces keeping the pressure on at all points. But you gotta tone this ♥♥♥♥ down, unless you want the ultra-niche triple deluxe hardcore people to ever clear this thing.

And with all those nitpicks at the edges of the design that shape up into some absurd overtuning, then we get to The CEO. Ground waves, air beams, multiple decoys, turrets, and actively consuming the main power source for the player, dodging out of the way, leaving a silouette that's difficult to pick out on a clear screen, let alone the noise filled moments - It's all just too much, especially with her genuinely absurd levels of HP. With that number of tricks in her kit, and the amount of speed, she should be a glass cannon, not a two phase kryptonian brick dropped into this combat system.

My hands hurt. Good game. Please lighten it up a touch.

[doctorforbidden]

I'm in my mid-40s here, and I haven't even been able to reach the 1st boss yet. I can't survive past the 5th gauntlet or so since the game rarely allows healing in a playthrough. Granted, I've only been playing for around 3 hours in total but given the weak upgrades (took hours to earn the 1000 credits to upgrade damage output, and it's a measly 25% increase...) I don't see myself being able to complete anything beyond the first corpo, so I doubt I can even unlock the remaining 2 shells.

I really like the Cyberpunk setting and the aesthetic of the shells, but it's quite preposterous how physically weak they are compared to cyborg humans. The gameplay isn't NOT fun, but when I am just endlessly repeating the first few encounters in order to get a tiny bit stronger, I can hardly recommend it to anyone. There needs to be a more reasonable difficulty setting with more heals, fewer and/or less damaging enemies.

[Can't-See J. Chimpowitz]

Publicado originalmente por doctorforbidden:

I haven't even been able to reach the 1st boss yet. I can't survive past the 5th gauntlet or so since the game rarely allows healing in a playthrough...
There needs to be a more reasonable difficulty setting with more heals, fewer and/or less damaging enemies.

This is why it's important that games release with accessable dev consoles, cheat codes, and support for player-created mods. There's no reason on god's green Earth anyone should be excluded from playing a roguelike game for lack of farming.

[BigEffinZed]

Doom eternal master level kicks my ass so much. this game difficulty is just right for me

[Super King]

I really thought I'd met my limit on the hardest difficulty and I would never beat it.
However eventually things started to click. I developed a way better understanding of the game mechanics. Most important were the various enemy/boss patterns.

Knowing the implants (and getting lucky with them) also helps a bunch.

I tried to rely on pure skill at the start and concluded much the same as you. give it a few more runs and really think about how all the pieces fit together. Your runs will go a lot better once you get a good feel for things.

[Five Pebbles]

Publicado originalmente por Super King:

I really thought I'd met my limit on the hardest difficulty and I would never beat it.
However eventually things started to click. I developed a way better understanding of the game mechanics. Most important were the various enemy/boss patterns.

Knowing the implants (and getting lucky with them) also helps a bunch.

I tried to rely on pure skill at the start and concluded much the same as you. give it a few more runs and really think about how all the pieces fit together. Your runs will go a lot better once you get a good feel for things.

Unfortunately people like to blame the game for their lack of skill. OP is even using age as a reason, and if he really believes that the game is too hard for him cause he's way too old, then wtf is he doing playing Deadlink? Should a 40 year old dad go in a basketball court being played by 18 year olds and complain that he can't keep up with their athleticism and speed? If you're an aged unathletic 40 year old, know your capabilities and limits, play Basketball with fellow people who is the same age as you. Main point is to stay in your lane, if you're going to complain about a game being too hard and wiling to blame age as the reason, then play games that aren't as intense or as difficult as what this game is. "Too many hitscans, sumo enemies sticks to you, I'm bad" Well you got tools for that mate, you can infinitely refill your shields, you get mobility abilities, you get upgrades for your guns, for your combat shell, and attributes, enemies behave predictably, use your brain to strategize. He then complains about the CEO boss, what? You want the 4th boss to be easier than the 3rd? If you actually use your brain, you'd realize that each boss is actually one upping the previous ones, Spider boss is barely mobile, shoots with a ♥♥♥♥ ton of missles and. 2nd boss is very mobile and defensive, but barely any ranged attacks. 3rd boss combines both, instead of movign around, the boss got area of denial attacks to force you to move, combines with multiple ranged attacks. Then the 4th boss combines and ups it even more. As it should be, Your complains are exactly why people love this game, that should tell you about what this game is and that you're just bad.

[Five Pebbles]

Publicado originalmente por Hong Kong Phooey J Chimpowitz:

Publicado originalmente por doctorforbidden:

I haven't even been able to reach the 1st boss yet. I can't survive past the 5th gauntlet or so since the game rarely allows healing in a playthrough...
There needs to be a more reasonable difficulty setting with more heals, fewer and/or less damaging enemies.

This is why it's important that games release with accessable dev consoles, cheat codes, and support for player-created mods. There's no reason on god's green Earth anyone should be excluded from playing a roguelike game for lack of farming.

That would quite literally defeat the purpose of this game, or any roguelike in general.

[Madder Red]

I recently turned 40 and i tend to agree with op on basically everything minus age. Age isnt that much of a factor, the lack of muscle memory is. I can manage the first 3 stages but the last is just way too overtuned. If you had somewhat bad luck with mods/weapon upgrades etc and furthermore (which is a huge factor aswell) left that clustereff of the third boss with less than ideal health left - well thats gg at this point. Not even having an option gain atleast SOME health back after mission 3 is just masochistically cruel imo. Every stage is boss fight with adds from all sides and the guys in blue having health close to the equivalent of the fat sumos doesnt help. At all. It feels like Stages 1-3 (minus the tower boss) are well designed and thought out and the last stage was an afterthought without really playtesting nor gamedesign. Every freaking room is an huge open area with atleast SOME parts allowing you to reposition yourself, meanwhile the whole screen is filled with stuff flying at you and dont even get me started on this pince (iirc) duo boss fight. I loved the game up until the boss of stage 3.

Publicado originalmente por Five Pebbles:

snip

Great post, not condescending nor sprinkled with insults between the elitism at all.

[Can't-See J. Chimpowitz]

I really think all of these whining people just place their augments in retarded slots.

[Five Pebbles]

Publicado originalmente por Hong Kong Phooey J Chimpowitz:

I really think all of these whining people just place their augments in retarded slots.

Yeah I agree. Not only are they bad in terms of mechanical skill, movement, aiming, utilizing the arena and their shell's abilities. They also put their augments in retrded slots

[Five Pebbles]

Publicado originalmente por Madder Red:

I recently turned 40 and i tend to agree with op on basically everything minus age. Age isnt that much of a factor, the lack of muscle memory is. I can manage the first 3 stages but the last is just way too overtuned. If you had somewhat bad luck with mods/weapon upgrades etc and furthermore (which is a huge factor aswell) left that clustereff of the third boss with less than ideal health left - well thats gg at this point. Not even having an option gain atleast SOME health back after mission 3 is just masochistically cruel imo. Every stage is boss fight with adds from all sides and the guys in blue having health close to the equivalent of the fat sumos doesnt help. At all. It feels like Stages 1-3 (minus the tower boss) are well designed and thought out and the last stage was an afterthought without really playtesting nor gamedesign. Every freaking room is an huge open area with atleast SOME parts allowing you to reposition yourself, meanwhile the whole screen is filled with stuff flying at you and dont even get me started on this pince (iirc) duo boss fight. I loved the game up until the boss of stage 3.

Publicado originalmente por Five Pebbles:

snip

Great post, not condescending nor sprinkled with insults between the elitism at all.

Boss 3 is the best boss fight in the game, you're just bad. Maybe take a look around? See that everyone else aside from you people who suck and complain at the game are beating the 3rd boss, and finding it enjoyable, fun, challenging and fair? If you're nearing 40 and you think you can't keep up, then that's on you, that's not the game's fault now is it? Not only can everyone else keep up, everyone else is dancing on the 3rd boss.

[Madder Red]

Ahh yes, the git gud crowd, presenting opinions as facts and ignoring several threads of feedback regarding the game design and bosses in particular. Elitism and ad-hominem attacks while providing nothing to the topic at hand, 6/10 made me reply

[doctorforbidden]

Publicado originalmente por Five Pebbles:

Unfortunately people like to blame the game for their lack of skill.

No, we acknowledge our lack of skill. We're also able to assess whether we can ever gain the degree of skill that's necessary to enjoy the game at the current state it is in. That's why we want things tuned down a notch.

Publicado originalmente por Five Pebbles:

OP is even using age as a reason, and if he really believes that the game is too hard for him cause he's way too old, then wtf is he doing playing Deadlink? Should a 40 year old dad go in a basketball court being played by 18 year olds and complain that he can't keep up with their athleticism and speed? If you're an aged unathletic 40 year old, know your capabilities and limits, play Basketball with fellow people who is the same age as you. Main point is to stay in your lane, if you're going to complain about a game being too hard and wiling to blame age as the reason, then play games that aren't as intense or as difficult as what this game is.

What are you even talking about here? We're perfectly willing to play basketball with fellow people our age. Again, THAT'S WHY WE'RE ASKING FOR A LOWER DIFFICULTY SETTING THAT WE CAN PLAY AT. What you're ACTUALLY telling us is that we shouldn't play basketball AT ALL just because we can't compete with 18-year-olds on the court. That's just perfectly obnoxious.

And really, maybe take a step back and look at why you're so defensive about other people asking for additional difficulty options in a single-player game. You say the difficulty is fine, great. So why would it matter to you as long as the higher difficulties still exist? Isn't it better all around if more people are able to play the game than fewer people are? It's pretty clear you're less concerned with how the game does than your ego that you've somehow tied to how well you're able to play difficult games, as if that's somehow a medal that anyone other than you inherently cares about.

[Five Pebbles]

Publicado originalmente por Madder Red:

Ahh yes, the git gud crowd, presenting opinions as facts and ignoring several threads of feedback regarding the game design and bosses in particular. Elitism and ad-hominem attacks while providing nothing to the topic at hand, 6/10 made me reply

Ah yes. the classic defense of calling everything elitism

[Five Pebbles]

Publicado originalmente por doctorforbidden:

Publicado originalmente por Five Pebbles:

Unfortunately people like to blame the game for their lack of skill.

No, we acknowledge our lack of skill. We're also able to assess whether we can ever gain the degree of skill that's necessary to enjoy the game at the current state it is in. That's why we want things tuned down a notch.

Publicado originalmente por Five Pebbles:

OP is even using age as a reason, and if he really believes that the game is too hard for him cause he's way too old, then wtf is he doing playing Deadlink? Should a 40 year old dad go in a basketball court being played by 18 year olds and complain that he can't keep up with their athleticism and speed? If you're an aged unathletic 40 year old, know your capabilities and limits, play Basketball with fellow people who is the same age as you. Main point is to stay in your lane, if you're going to complain about a game being too hard and wiling to blame age as the reason, then play games that aren't as intense or as difficult as what this game is.

What are you even talking about here? We're perfectly willing to play basketball with fellow people our age. Again, THAT'S WHY WE'RE ASKING FOR A LOWER DIFFICULTY SETTING THAT WE CAN PLAY AT. What you're ACTUALLY telling us is that we shouldn't play basketball AT ALL just because we can't compete with 18-year-olds on the court. That's just perfectly obnoxious.

And really, maybe take a step back and look at why you're so defensive about other people asking for additional difficulty options in a single-player game. You say the difficulty is fine, great. So why would it matter to you as long as the higher difficulties still exist? Isn't it better all around if more people are able to play the game than fewer people are? It's pretty clear you're less concerned with how the game does than your ego that you've somehow tied to how well you're able to play difficult games, as if that's somehow a medal that anyone other than you inherently cares about.

But there's already the easy difficulty? You don't have to go to Deep Dive and Neuromancy if you don't want to. Optimize your builds, put implants in good slots and select good upgrades, the first one, VR Orientation isn't really that hard

[Puddles the Corgi]

Publicado originalmente por Mr. No_Effs_Given:

Even beating the game several times, i find the last area particularly overtuned compared to the rest, especially the last boss. It's not a fun fight tbh.

Especially the second phase of the last boss - massive spike in difficulty