Lingering Questions after the Ending (SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY)

[dozenBeneath]

Finished the game a couple days ago, loved it. It's been rumbling around in my brain ever since. But I have some questions.

SPOILERS AHEAD

1. There's some dialogue in communion on with the fall of the 50 where it's briefly stated that a) they're thinking of inseminating Iris and b) there's a fallback person if Iris doesn't end up working out (a baby? a clone? a clone baby?) Can anyone clear up what's going on here?

2. All the daughters are descendants of the Youngest? Not Iris? This felt like it came out of nowhere and I don't think I get the full implications of it. Does that mean Principal never actually lost the ability to make clones after the first Jiao? And if so, why did she wait for Iris's murder to start making Jiaos again?

3. What was up with the giant pigeon?

4. What the heck does "hekki" mean?

5. Given that the communions in the first half of the game have been edited by Principal/Youngest, how much do you consider it unreliable? I personally question whether Iris ever gave the first generation immunity only to take it away, and that this was Principal's way of setting Watcher up to kill Iris.

6. What caused the Occupant attack? Was it really the one remaining Occupant that's in communion with Iris? It seemed so convenient for Principal and too unprecedented to be a coincidence.

Feel free to post your own theories/questions here too. Not enough discussion along these lines anywhere I can find.

[BudgieGaming]

Hhhhmmm it's been a while since I finished it but I'll try to answer the ones that I remember/assume/infer. Although please keep in mind that I may be wrong about a lot of this, after all, I'm just a silly budgie.

Originally posted by dozenBeneath:

2. All the daughters are descendants of the Youngest? Not Iris? This felt like it came out of nowhere and I don't think I get the full implications of it. Does that mean Principal never actually lost the ability to make clones after the first Jiao? And if so, why did she wait for Iris's murder to start making Jiaos again?

If I recall correctly, the idea of all daughters being descendants of the youngest gets introduced relatively early, when they tell you the story of her other sisters getting killed, the game suggests that in her loneliness after being abandoned by Iris she decides to start making clones, although I don't remember how explicit the game was about it.

She never lost the ability to do it, she just botched the first attempt because she didn't know what she was doing, but there's a scene that suggests that she figures it out by trial and error (she says something like "too early, I got her out too early" or something like that). After all she is left alone with nothing to do just like her mom so she has all the time in the world to get it right.

She didn't create more Jiaos because, for most of her life, up until shortly before the beginning of the game, she had stayed hopeful that she could win back the favor of her mom, that's why she didn't create more Jiaos and kept sending what she considered to be her most successful clones. I guess you could argue that she waits until actually murdering her to not give away her betrayal.

Originally posted by dozenBeneath:

3. What was up with the giant pigeon?

For me it's clearly an idea that got abandoned early in development that the whole occupant invasion altered the ecosystem radically or something along those lines, they must've pivoted on that sometime mid development.

Originally posted by dozenBeneath:

4. What the heck does "hekki" mean?

If you mean in universe it's some sort of "praise be" culti-like thing, if you mean the actual origin of it apparently some dev wrote that by mistake instead of hello in team chat during development and they decided to put it in.

Originally posted by dozenBeneath:

5. I personally question whether Iris ever gave the first generation immunity only to take it away.

I find the idea of the inmunity suspect too because that was the whole conflict with The 50, that none of the clones were maintaining inmunity successfully. Although I might've missed something in that regard.

Originally posted by dozenBeneath:

6. What caused the Occupant attack? Was it really the one remaining Occupant that's in communion with Iris? It seemed so convenient for Principal and too unprecedented to be a coincidence.

I'm sure there's an actual answer but I ran with my headcannon that, since the occupants get attracted by intense memories and experiences, the sudden and intense barrage of communions might be to blame for it.

[dozenBeneath]

Ah I didn't connect the dots that Youngest had always been making the daughters, I assumed those scenes were her perfecting her Jiao. But that would mean there'd be other Jiaos before the assassination, so you're absolutely right.

So does that imply that Iris never cared whether or not Youngest made more clones? That her taking that away (much like the immunity) is just a fabrication to manipulate Watcher?

Good stuff.

[BudgieGaming]

Originally posted by dozenBeneath:

So does that imply that Iris never cared whether or not Youngest made more clones? That her taking that away (much like the immunity) is just a fabrication to manipulate Watcher?

Hhhmmm, she does ban them from creating new clones when she's present, and we see from how she reacts to the Jiao clone that she definitely meant business about it.
And I have to believe most of that was factual and not a fabrication mostly because it alligns with everything else and also because it's kinda the only explanation that we have about what happened with the original kids and with youngest.

But she definitely seems to be less strict about it once she leaves, could be because she's too busy communing with the occupant super frequently when she's on her own, could be because she wanted to maintain her perfect community with the five kids and once that was lost she stopped giving a ♥♥♥♥ about it.

You definitely have to stretch and infer a bit to make everything fit decently well, and I'm probably not the budgie for the job, unfortunately. I would love to read the simplified plot summary of some people to see how aligned we are on this stuff.

[cindercube]

Re: 5, the clones created with an accelerated timeline by the 50 and then later by Secretary did not have immunity. Iris was able to grant the original clones immunity with an implant of her hair. She takes away their immunity by ripping her hair out of their scalps. They aren’t wearing masks so they die instantly. Hair to hair and all that.
Also note the one clone created by the 50 without an accelerated timeline seems to have immunity, though I don’t remember where that particular thread goes, maybe she dies in Blue’s attack? She’s mentioned in passing in the flashbacks explaining the 50 and also shows up in a cutscene with Principal after Blue leaves old town but before the bomb.
I think it’s ambiguous how much Principal edited, but in my mind it’s mostly unedited besides the Fixer scene because the Occupant confirms that Iris was a selfish person who hurt her friend at the end. The purpose of most of the early scenes with Iris are to show her cruelty, specifically towards Jiao.

[Vict]

Does no one remember that Iris explicitly tells the youngest to make clones? As punishment for the failed Jiao clone. She literally says “if you enjoy making clones so much, then you will make clones from dawn to dawn”. That’s like the entire punishment she gives the youngest. Leaving her behind and tasking her with cloning herself until she can make “perfect” clones.

[BudgieGaming]

Aaaaah see I knew I was forgetting a ton! Well I did say I'm just a silly budgie after all.

[Vict]

Sorry if I came off as a bit aggressive. I just binged this game over the course of the past couple days. I'll probably play through it again soon, because even talking to every character and everything... it is very confusing and there are lots of conflicting information that we are presented with.

[BudgieGaming]

nah don't worry, I perfectly understand how it feels like when you really enjoy a story and you see people having one issue or another with it due to them misunderstanding or misremembering stuff and you're like "but it explains that! it explains it right there! aaaargh" It's a perfectly human thing

[dozenBeneath]

I appreciate all of you!

This has been super helpful for exorcising those "can't this out of my head" theories.

[Vict]

It's a shame that there doesn't seem to be enough discussion about this game on the internet. So thanks for starting this topic!

[FockinUppity]

The visuals of the giant pigeon are very out of place with the rest of the game. and the way it speaks reminds me of principal's child like writing style. I assume the pigeon is something principal put there to cover up some kind of unpleasant dead mutant corpse.

[Jin]

Iris definitely didn't take anyone's immunity. She also didn't kill the other sisters. We see in chapter 7, the other sisters are still alive when she's leaving for the other side. Principal also admits she doesn't need the mask in ch10. Watchers etc are not immune because they are clones of principal and not the original.

Most of what we know about Iris in ch4 is basically through the lens of Principal who was a child who didn't understand her mother loved her but had PTSD and was mentally unwell, much like Iris didn't understand her mother. CH7 shows how Iris actually was and the occupant confirmed she was protective of her sisters until the end.

She definitely killed the OG Jiao clone but it was a spur of the moment thing and she later was surprised by her own action ("What came over me? Killing that thing"). Also I don't think principal even understood how damaged the Jiao clone was because of her poor eyesight, on the top of not understanding how much Iris was suffering to protect them.

[III_phr]

Yeah principal was immune. Also, I think knower is the oldest, the one purple sister from the beginning. I think it's alluded to in some dialogue but I don't remember which one.

[III_phr]

Also about the #6, I think it's definitely orchestrated. Knower sent Mauve to burn the whole library, and chose to commune with watcher that exact moment, while principal didn't even say anything about it to watcher (despite doing it for others). I think there are other evidences about it but I can't remember xd

[III_phr]

Oh the other thing is that there's only one occupant on earth, and it's busy with Iris and Iris won't let it attack the orchard. And there's no reason for the occupant to do it.