CRPG or Visual Novel

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

So i bought this because it was labeled as a "CRPG" on the store page, and I'm thinking, oh, I love CRPGs and haven't heard of this, I'll buy it. However, I see the name Disco Elysium being thrown about the forums a lot, and I'm getting worried. As DE isn't a CRPG, it's just a visual novel game that kind of has a CRPG look to it, please tell me this is an actual CRPG with leveling up, strategic battles, map to explore etc. Because if not, people need to stop tagging Visual Novels as "CRPGs" like Pathfinder or Pillars of Eternity.

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

It appears my fears were true, had to refund it. Will people do a little research before they tag something? FYI if a game has NO combat, it's not an RPG. RPGs are based on Dungeons and Dragons, which is based on war games. Since all D&D sessions since recorded time have had combat and combat mechanics, labeling anything without RPG gameplay as a CRPG is beyond wrong.

And no, Disco Elysium is not an RPG LOL. You play a role in 100% of games, that's NOT what defines an RPG. The style and type of combat is what defines it. People trying to deceive people into buying this thinking it's Baldur's Gate or Shawdowrun is just going to hurt sales, not help them.

[Syrris]

Umm, D&D is not the be-all-end-all of RPGs, nor was it the first RPG, nor are RPGs inherently fixated on combat. D&D-alikes tend to be because of the wargaming history but it's a much broader genre than that.

In any case, Steam tags are pretty much useless regardless of what they are, particularly given the amount of troll-tagging that goes on.

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

Originally posted by Syrris:

Umm, D&D is not the be-all-end-all of RPGs, nor was it the first RPG, nor are RPGs inherently fixated on combat. D&D-alikes tend to be because of the wargaming history but it's a much broader genre than that.

In any case, Steam tags are pretty much useless regardless of what they are, particularly given the amount of troll-tagging that goes on.

D&D is pretty much the forefather of all RPGs, but WHATEVER you pick, they all have combat.

I agree with you that the tagging is bad, but it's never been as bad as the last few years. I really wish they would just go to Developers providing the tags.

I disagree about RPGs not being inherently fixated on combat. They absolutely are, which is why a game can't possibly be an RPG without combat mechanics. Sure there are other elements, but the defining nature of an RPG is what style of comabat (turn-based, grid-based strategic, etc.)

[feytharn]

Originally posted by RPG Historian:

Originally posted by Syrris:

Umm, D&D is not the be-all-end-all of RPGs, nor was it the first RPG, nor are RPGs inherently fixated on combat. D&D-alikes tend to be because of the wargaming history but it's a much broader genre than that.

In any case, Steam tags are pretty much useless regardless of what they are, particularly given the amount of troll-tagging that goes on.

D&D is pretty much the forefather of all RPGs, but WHATEVER you pick, they all have combat.

They all have the option for combat (and they should have, even for a decent tabletop experience only the imagination of the players should be the limit of what they can try to do) though not every rpg has dedicated combst systems/mechanics , but since pen&paper rpgs evolved from the wargaming, diplomacy, subterfuge, fast talking and skills of all kind have been part of 'every' rpg.

So by excluding videogames/computergames from being rpgs that don't have one 'core' element that every pen&paper rpgs has you will be left with a very limited number of rpgs left.

[frowningmirror]

Originally posted by RPG Historian:

I disagree about RPGs not being inherently fixated on combat. They absolutely are, which is why a game can't possibly be an RPG without combat mechanics. Sure there are other elements, but the defining nature of an RPG is what style of combat (turn-based, grid-based strategic, etc.)

RPG stands for role playing game. D&D moved away from wargaming, and focused on developing player choice. When RPGs moved to video games, for a time, the genre largely focused on violence because it was easier to code and visualize.

Now people have the tools to make games more easily and we have a wider selection of games. You tell me, does "role playing game" make you think of combat to a new player wanting to experience what its about? Or is it about assuming a fantasy role?

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

Originally posted by feytharn:

Originally posted by RPG Historian:

D&D is pretty much the forefather of all RPGs, but WHATEVER you pick, they all have combat.

They all have the option for combat (and they should have, even for a decent tabletop experience only the imagination of the players should be the limit of what they can try to do) though not every rpg has dedicated combst systems/mechanics , but since pen&paper rpgs evolved from the wargaming, diplomacy, subterfuge, fast talking and skills of all kind have been part of 'every' rpg.

So by excluding videogames/computergames from being rpgs that don't have one 'core' element that every pen&paper rpgs has you will be left with a very limited number of rpgs left.

That core element is usually 70% of the gameplay, so...

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

Originally posted by frowningmirror:

Originally posted by RPG Historian:

I disagree about RPGs not being inherently fixated on combat. They absolutely are, which is why a game can't possibly be an RPG without combat mechanics. Sure there are other elements, but the defining nature of an RPG is what style of combat (turn-based, grid-based strategic, etc.)

RPG stands for role playing game. D&D moved away from wargaming, and focused on developing player choice. When RPGs moved to video games, for a time, the genre largely focused on violence because it was easier to code and visualize.

Now people have the tools to make games more easily and we have a wider selection of games. You tell me, does "role playing game" make you think of combat to a new player wanting to experience what its about? Or is it about assuming a fantasy role?

People had tools to not use combat since the beginning of video games. I'd love to see your "source" about it being easier to code violence. Um, seriously, what? That doesn't even make sense. Whether to include combat was a stylistic choice. What separated RPGs is they ALL had combat. Wrong argument, sorry.

[feytharn]

Originally posted by RPG Historian:

Originally posted by feytharn:

They all have the option for combat (and they should have, even for a decent tabletop experience only the imagination of the players should be the limit of what they can try to do) though not every rpg has dedicated combst systems/mechanics , but since pen&paper rpgs evolved from the wargaming, diplomacy, subterfuge, fast talking and skills of all kind have been part of 'every' rpg.

So by excluding videogames/computergames from being rpgs that don't have one 'core' element that every pen&paper rpgs has you will be left with a very limited number of rpgs left.

That core element is usually 70% of the gameplay, so...

Not in my experience, and certainly not for a fair number of rpg systems out there.

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

Originally posted by feytharn:

Originally posted by RPG Historian:

That core element is usually 70% of the gameplay, so...

Not in my experience, and certainly not for a fair number of rpg systems out there.

Combat is absolutely close to 70% of the gameplay in an average JRPG or CRPG, and actually more than that for tactical RPGs like Triangle Strategy. The point is, there's a TON of combat in your average RPG.

[Syrris]

CRPGs and their relatives are a subset of RPGs, which include tabletop systems. As noted above, most (but not all) CRPGs have traditionally been combat-heavy because it's relatively easy to script and code for and pads play time at a relatively low cost.

Beyond that, the CRPG label has often been slapped on fighting or tactics or pure action games simply as a marketing tool, which further muddies the waters. (Taking it fully to the absurd, I've seen entirely-serious arguments that things like DOOM are RPGs because they have character stats in the form of health and ammo counts.)

However, RPGs as a broader genre (which covers tabletop systems along with digital ones) do have conflict resolution systems but only some of them are combat-focused and a few don't have any set-apart combat mechanics as such. (And I can think of a couple where combat isn't even an option or results in an immediate character retirement.)

That's what this game is going for. It has a conflict resolution system and that system is sometimes used to resolve a fight but fighting isn't the game's focus. It's entirely within the wheelhouse of the RPG genre, even if it's different from the sort of CRPGs-and-relatives that you're used to.

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

Originally posted by Syrris:

CRPGs and their relatives are a subset of RPGs, which include tabletop systems. As noted above, most (but not all) CRPGs have traditionally been combat-heavy because it's relatively easy to script and code for and pads play time at a relatively low cost.

Beyond that, the CRPG label has often been slapped on fighting or tactics or pure action games simply as a marketing tool, which further muddies the waters. (Taking it fully to the absurd, I've seen entirely-serious arguments that things like DOOM are RPGs because they have character stats in the form of health and ammo counts.)

However, RPGs as a broader genre (which covers tabletop systems along with digital ones) do have conflict resolution systems but only some of them are combat-focused and a few don't have any set-apart combat mechanics as such. (And I can think of a couple where combat isn't even an option or results in an immediate character retirement.)

That's what this game is going for. It has a conflict resolution system and that system is sometimes used to resolve a fight but fighting isn't the game's focus. It's entirely within the wheelhouse of the RPG genre, even if it's different from the sort of CRPGs-and-relatives that you're used to.

The thing is, I'd probably like this game and might re-buy it if I'm in the mood for a point n click adventure because it might scratch that itch. I was just in the mood for a new CRPG, and then realized, "No combat... NOOOOO!"

[dotheneurotic]

the fact that there's lots of combat in most rpg-s doesn't mean that combat is necessary to make an rpg

rpg usually means a game where you can choose character stats, which you can later alter in exchange for time and effort spent exploring a world where the outcome of certain events is determined by an equation where at least one variable is one of your stats and another is a random number generated by the game

why does it matter whether this happens when you shoot an arrow or when you choose a dialogue option? that's just an aesthetic choice - it doesn't change the rules

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

Originally posted by dotheneurotic:

the fact that there's lots of combat in most rpg-s doesn't mean that combat is necessary to make an rpg

rpg usually means a game where you can choose character stats, which you can later alter in exchange for time and effort spent exploring a world where the outcome of certain events is determined by an equation where at least one variable is one of your stats and another is a random number generated by the game

why does it matter whether this happens when you shoot an arrow or when you choose a dialogue option? that's just an aesthetic choice - it doesn't change the rules

It matters because it's a core tenet of the genre. You could have a horror film with no violence and no killing, sure. But fans of the genre would hate it. That's the point.

[dotheneurotic]

there's loads of successful horror films with little to no real violence

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

Originally posted by dotheneurotic:

there's loads of successful horror films with little to no real violence

LOL Name one.