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讨论规则及指引
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Automatically detecting cheese is impossible, even if you could program it. Trying to algorithmically detect the difference between cheese armor and the flat plate of a German-style frontal offset or turret roof would basically require true AGI. Even giant megacorps with f*ckjillions of dollars can't make AGI yet, let alone get AI to figure out far simpler things.
Forcing design changes like weak turret rings solves absolutely nothing. Giant guns and high-velocity guns are naturally balanced by being huge, slow to reload, and requiring massive amounts of volume for the motors and ammo. Forcing turret rings to be tall and weak also just promotes a garbage meta of using super-fast turrets and guns with the bare minimum penetration. Same garbage, different bag.
Server rules and bans would be the only feasible option, both for the dev and the players. Have the server owners be able to watch the battles, admin-kill OP cheese tanks, then warn or kick the user if they don't stop.
Just exactly how many competitive MP "vehicle builders" are there? Not very many. In fact, I can't even name a single one. I'm sure there's some out there, just none that I can think of, and definitely none with the mechanics of Sprocket. I think Sprocket has the potential because of the simulation where everything tends to balance out, plus, there can be different goals which promotes unique tank designs to meet the goal. Obviously, running private servers where admins can set the rules of their server is the ultimate "anti-cheat" because people can tell better than any computer program when somebody is abusing a mechanic, or straight up hacking.
Starmade, From the Depths, Robocraft, etc. etc.
All have MP, all have competitive MP, and all of them have meta cheese MP builds that are the same crap in different bags. Hyperoptimization is the name of the game with MP.
Just because Sprocket has "different mechanics" doesn't mean it's not going to fall in to the pit. All of those games have radically different mechanics, didn't stop them. And FtD in particular simulates a LOT of things, didn't stop "frontsiders" from becoming the norm in MP. There is nothing the game can do mechanically or in simulation that will prevent players from hyperoptimizing, no game has ever accomplished that feat.
Even objective-based gameplay is overridden by "hurr gurr kill thing", since you can't complete objectives when you're dead, meaning every game turns in to "kill the other team before they do X objective". It's why the only worthwhile MP in games like this is cooperative PVE. PVP, unless a game is built from the ground up for it, will always turn to garbage. Well, even then most PVP games are garbage.
Like I said, the only solution is private servers with private rules and banlists. Admins would have to watch every design and kick the players running cheese.
And how would it be meta if they use minimum penetration? Wouldn't that kind of... I don't know, make the tank worthless? Sure, the turret is fast but... You can't penetrate anything. And you can make a pretty decent cannon with pretty decent turret speed and penetration. I don't get your point with that one unless I'm getting confused...
Honest question: Do you detest multiplayer or something? Because there are lots of ways you could balance a game like this if the developer takes the time to implement such things. Don't tell me otherwise, I'm a game developer myself, so I know what's possible and what's not possible. PREETTY much anything is possible if you put the work into it. And trust me, there's always a workaround for something.
I mean, maybe Unity is different. As far as I understand, anything is possible in the Unreal Engine 4. I used Unity before... I hated it, so I wouldn't know the limits of Unity. That'd be pretty unfortunate if it did have limits though...
Exactly. It's the reason i no longer play MP games unless i know the people i'm playing with. The coolest thing about MP is playing with other people, the worst thing about MP is having to play with other people. Min/maxers, sweat lords, try hards, epeen lovers, griefers, etc all just ruin any MP experience. Some people just cant play a game to just have fun with others.
This game in a MP setting with no rules will be a cluster fcuk. period. You will have to have the server admin control everything. Only so much HP on engines, only armor so thick or sloped to a certain degree, what ammo types, sizes, lengths, barrel lengths, etc etc. if these options aren't added and you play MP with randos you are going to be miserable.
you will have people with 5% sloped armor all around the tank, giant school bus sized gun sitting on 2 treads and nothing else, tanks 1 foot tall, etc ,etc ,etc. its going to be a clown show and not fun for anyone actually trying to play and have even, fun, fair, matches.
it will take some serious work and some serious moderating.
again, its why i have ZERO interests in playing MP games any longer with randos. Its just not worth the headaches or drama to me..
You put the onus on the developer, so.... Yeah, that'd be detecting cheese. Any "automatic prevention" is either too restrictive or so exploitable as to be useless. Trust me, grognards will find a way to ruin any game they play, and then ruin that game for anyone else.
"Minimum penetration" being "minimum penetration necessary to hit the turret ring". Some no-fun loser will math out THE optimal turret and gun within a week. Always plays out the same way, seen it plenty of times before, and Sprocket won't be the one to buck the trend.
And finally, yes, I do detest PVP being shoe-horned in to games. It provides literally nothing of value, and is in the vast majority of cases an active detriment to the game, especially when it affects broader game mechanics. If you really are a "game dev" then you should also knew that you cannot meaningfully balance a sandbox without ruining its capacity as a sandbox. And any effort spent making meaningful balance decisions that don't completely ruin the sandbox for everyone else is effort not spent on any other area of the game. PVP is a worthless resource sink unless your game is designed from the outset for PVP.
I also detest the kind of people that want PVP in every conceivable game, because they ALWAYS end up one of two ways:
A) Ruining the game for everybody else by demanding sweeping mechanical changes to cater to their stupid PVP mode, OR
B) Becoming a toxic vocal minority that won't shut the ♥♥♥♥ up about their stupid PVP mode, and want sweeping mechanical changes made to cater to them.
This whole thing right here is my exact feelings on the matter.
I'd also add that people who want PVP in everything are a cancer, and are inevitably the very same sweaty loser tryhards that end up ruining the mode for everyone.
Oh, and did I mention that the ideas I had were for SERVERS and not SINGLEPLAYER? Yeah, you can balance a sandbox COMPETITIVE PLAYER VS PLAYER, not SANDBOX or CASUAL MULTIPLAYER.
I see no use telling you this stuff though. Firstly it's probably going to through one ear and out to the other, and I mean, just because you hate multiplayer doesn't mean you need to push your own thoughts about multiplayer into other people's heads who DO like multiplayer, like me. And honestly, I never seen problems with multiplayer unless the game was bad. So just let people like what they like. Is it hard to be a good, understanding person?
Oh, and also no need to trash people who like multiplayer my guy. Saying people are cancer just because they like multiplayer is kind of the same thing as saying people who like singleplayer are boring and unimaginable and deserve to fall in the 7 pits of hell.
And I should add that not every person that likes multiplayer is cancer-inducing. I mean, not every black person in the whole world speaks loudly, sassy-like, and rude. I sure don't.
Oh, and I also notice you're not really... reading what I said about the cheese part. Because again, prohibit, not detect. But ah whatever, I give up. You go do you my friend, because I can already see this is going to be an endless argument no matter how many things I tell and counter. And it also kind of tells me what person you are since you think that people who like PVP are cancer and are the main reason for making multiplayer terrible... And I rather deal with people who are understanding and are good in the heart.
Oh, I should also add that just because a few games happened to turn out bad with multiplayer doesn't mean this one will follow the same fate. It's like saying that whenever someone, anyone goes out into society, you'll be a depressed, suicidal, non-loving freak whose only purpose is to work, work, work, and die. And before you comment on that: No, not everyone's life is like that. Yes, it is depressing to see a ton of lives like that... But not everyone lives like that.
seems both of you understand the most viable multiplayer this game can have are dedicated servers with local rules. in fact so does the dev already.
anyway, what i wait with great anticipation is derp guns actually becoming a viable build. gimme at least these HE shells.
and if i can dream even more, gimme lotsa different fuses; low pressure guns for low velocity without the hassle of a short, inaccurate barrel; different propellant charges; mantlets enabling higher elevation; some gud optics with range adjustments. u guessed it, i have a fetish for hot potato launchers.
then something interesting far more people: mod support, but also some map editor. latter is not planned atm, but i hope mod support could be extensive enough to maybe develop mapping tools ourselves. custom maps are just way too good of a canvas to not have imo.