Of Roaring Knights and Dark SOULs. A knight Theory.

[smuchmuch]

So uh, been floating around for a while but figured I’d finally make a theory post about the knight.
Not so much WHO they are (at least not at first) than WHAT they are.

Now, I am not the first one to have come up with a lot of those ideas. Some have been floating around for a while around various threads and videos and whatnot, I’m pretty sure.
Still few have some with a synthesis of it all, so here I’m goin.

It’s gonna be a LOOOOONG one. It may even take multiple opening posts (edit: it freaking did) And with pictures so uh.
For convenience, I also put it all in a google doc[docs.google.com], which may be easier to read than some long forum posts.

Also there's a couple of TL DR summaries in bold along the way, because I'm not going to fault anyone for not reading a freaking essay...

So I’m going to operate in four phases here:

A short summary of things we know about the knight
Why it leads to WHAT I think they are
From where, WHO they may be
And finally addressing some weak points and likely rebuttals.

A Knight To Remember

So before addressing the nature of the knight I’d like to remind a couple of points that we know about them, that shouldn’t be too controversial :

• They are incredibly strong as an opponent
  
• They are not mindless
  
• They have determination and they can use it to create fountains. They can do so in the Light World.
  
• Whoever they are, they likely knew Gerson when he was alive since their version of the dark Sanctuary has a Darkner patterned after Gerson memories. This GErson appears as smith, badass and wise teacher so it’s fair to say they had some respect for him.
  
• They farm that aura like they’re an aura plantation owner..
  
• They have the deer look that seems ot at least connect them to Dess and the Holiday if not necessarily make it her
  
• They can float
  
• They can shapeshift:[imgur.com]
  The forms seen are the antlered knight, the knight roaring where its head turns into a deer skull and its chest open showing an eyeball inside, a floating ball and an antlered bird-like figure. (Berdly Knight confirmed ?)
  
• They can summon swords which they use to great effect. Not just the one in their hands but also the one they use as projectile. and we know it’s not just gameplay since they use those to open the fountain in chapter 4 outside of battle.
  
• Small point but one of interest: They are not referred to as “they” during their fight. They are referred to as “It”. That's pretty interesting since that’s not how you call someone but something.
  
• When Susie breaks their sword after a successful fight, we find a fragment of it which is the black shard. We also find a shadow crystal.
  
• They look very otherworldly, particularly the way they leave a strange after effect trial after them
  
• They have a very particular look. (I'll come back to that one later)

So here are few possibilities from these elements

Knight as a lightner (the one most people hold true):
The fact they can create fountains and use determination as well as be in the dark world seems to point out to a lightner.
However while lightners do seem to gain extraordinary abilities and a costume change in dark worlds, they’re still themselves. Their bodies are still the same and we haven’t seen anything like shapeshifting. And some of the forms the knight takes like the floating ball do NOT look like they are big enough to hold a lightner body, not comfortably at least.. Even the knight one, have you seen how small that waist is ? I think even the most Victorian corset and tapeworm diet couldn’t help you fit into that…

Knight as a Darkner:
A few Darkners have shown some powers of shapeshifting, Jevil and Spamton turning into objects, Ralsei and the horse “costume”, Gerson changing from regular old man to armored old man… None of them have been as fluid as the knight tho but definitely more than Lightners.
OIf course the problem with being Darkners is uh well everything that make them likely a lightner: Being able to go into the light world and create fountains. That’s a pretty big hurdle

Knight as something else:
Lightner with a twist (soulless lightner, zombie dess)
Darkner with a twist (darkner with a soul, a very good argument made for it from user кот-слизень )
Something entirely else… It certainly seems otherworldly.
Definitely seems possible but the last one in particular would be kind of anticlimactic at this point. Like getting something that hasn’t added any foreshadowing or explanation yet at this point seems a bit late in the story. Besides Toby Fox did say once that he needed to have the story figured from the start to make sure all important lightners were named dropped in the first chapter (not necessarily seen or met but name dropped at least), I don”t think it’s unimportant.

Now of all elements, I’d like to go back to the look of the knight because i’s quite interesting. Everyone focus on the shapeshifting, the antlers, the spiny appearance, the floating but there’s something else interesting:

The knight is completely BLACK. There is not colors on there, no details on it’s body
It has a WHITE OUTLINE
The Knight as single WHITE THING that serves as it’s FACE, being both eyes and mouth

I’l definitively not the first to bring that out but there is one other thing that shares those characteristics: THE TITAN. And it spawns[imgur.com]
It is black, with a white outline that is the only thing giving it details making it look otherworldly as hell and its face is a giant white star.

But this goes beyond mere appearance: Beating the knight gives you the dark shard. It is a shard of the sword of the knight. So it is made of whatever that sword is made. The dark shard does extra damage to enemies made of pure darkness, namely the Titan and the spawns.I hopethize that this is because the dark shard is more “real” to dark enemies, thus they feel it most.
It’s also worth noting that to beat the knight the Shadow mantle is a must. The shadow mantle protect from the damage from the knight. .. and also from the titan and titan spwns since they are also dark elements enemies..

I think it’s not unfair to say that the titans and the knight shares a lot of physical characteristics. almost os if they were made of the same stuff…

A Titanic Conundrum

The titan is what happens when a dark fountain is created in a dark world. And dark fountain is made from determination, the determination of lightner who starts it. And it has a “will” of its own determined from its creator too (To add to that we know the creator rof the fountain influence the dark world created as we’ve seen in chapter 4). Ralsei says as much when explaining why some Darkners turn to stone, they are not compatible with the “will” of the fountain. When the fountain is dispelled, the titan disappears. The titan is effectively the fountain manifesting a body made of darkness around it.

So a titan we fight is a shell of darkness created around a source of determination.
And the knight we fight in chapter 3 is made of the same stuff.


There is another element that goes in this sense:
When you chip the knight sword, you don’t just get the dark sword. You get a shadow crystal. So unless the knight has shapeshifted pockets the crystals fell off, I think it’s not unfair to say the dark crystal here is made of the same stuff as the dark shard: a bit of the knight sword.

And Toby lately dropped quite the bomb about the shadow crystal with a leaked dialogue recently:
The shadow crystals hold the power of determination.
Three shadow crystals can be linked to the knight. Jevil met the knigh.Gerson had the knight go through his study before he found the crystal in his desk.
And the one dropped by the knight.. well that’s obvious.

The one that sticks out is Spamton but knowing what we know, it makes sense. Seam tells us Spamton found the shadow crystal in the robot body. First as Spamton was installed in the body, it was touched by KIris, now a known associate of the knight. But second it deosn’t have to be associated to the knigh because we know from Swatch that the robot was made from the dream of a lightner in which they had poured a lot of love and effort… So quite a bit of will and determination in there.

Point is, I say it’s not unfair to say that shadow chrysalis are determination shaping darkness in a solid object. and at least one of them can be linked for sure to the knight. And even seemingly to what the knight sword is made of.

That also explains the shapeshifting, since it’s just a manifestation of whatever is inside made from the ambient darkness, it can just reshape it more or less at will. It also explains how it can summon his swords. It also explains the glitching when it takes a beatdown: effectively it is losing its concentration thus briefly it almost loses the ability to hold itself together. and it also explains that small detail I pointed out: “it”. What you see is not a person.

So I hold it to you, the knight we meet in chapter 3 is a shell. A shell made to hold a source of determination.

TL DR:
Due to their similarity with the Titan and connection to the shadow crystals, I believe the knight we meet in chapter 3 is a body made of darkness made solid by the power of determination. The titan is darkness gathered around a dark fountain that became a scary big monster. The knigh is likely dark armor manifested around a source of determination.

Eye Blinded By Darkness or Black Eye ?

But what could this source of determination be ?
Well we can tell a few things about it:

First, whatever it is, it's small. Smaller than a fountain, and small enough to fit inside a humanoid body but also its smaller forms like the ball.
And second it can float since the shell around it can as well.

I believe in fact we’ve seen what it is [imgur.com]
(and yes once again “it”) : When the Knight roars, it opens its ribcage and one particular details appears: A center eyeball in the middle of its chest
Eyes are something of recurring themes in the dark world. They are on the cliffs. and they are heavily associated with the Titan.

So..
A small thing:

• That is shaped like a symbolic organ
  
• Referred as it by narration
  
• That hangs around in the middle if a humanoid shell to be able to do stuff
  
• That floats
  
• That carry determination
  
• That can manifest some otherworldly powers that makes it feel eldritch to the world of DeltaRune

Where have we seen that before in the game ?[imgur.com]

[smuchmuch]

The SOUL solution

I posit to you that the knight is a SOUL. Or rather a creature exercising its will through a SOUL or SOUL like Device.

Sounds far fetched ? We have a direct example of someone doing exactly tha in the game: Us.

The SOUL in Deltarune, the one we know and control carry determination. Yet we’ve seen that it’s not Kriss determination. We know this because Kriss uses their determination to create a dark fountain at the end of chapter 2 while the SOUL is stuck in the couch.

So the SOUL, whether it’d be Kris or not (there’s debate on that), carries someone else's determination. And we know who’s: Ours. It is our channel to the world of DeltaRune and thus the instrument of will in this world. And whether you believe in player/angel theory or not, what seems clear is that this determination manifests itself as light. The outer light who seals the fountain and destroys the titan spawns and the inner light who buffs party members during boss fights.
It makes a certain sense symbolically when you think of it that it would be the way to close the dark fountains. It’s not just light illuminating darkness when we seal a fountain, it is a determination overpowering another’s

And we know it’s likely our light for a few reasons:

• First Kris needs us to seal the fountain. In chapter 1 if we give up, the world ends up covered in darkness,which means they can’t seal the fountain without us. If this was Kris' soul and Kris' determination, why would they need us to close the fountains ?
  
• Second, when we fight the knight and make it nearly to the end of the fight but fail, Gaster comments on it. He sees it, our determination. He sees it “shine”. A metaphor ? Probably, but I don't think the choice of words is necessarily random either.
  
• Third, the music that plays when you seal a fountain is called “YOUR power”
  
• Finally the SOUL shines even when away from Kris as we’ve seen in chapter 4. It’s faint but it’s there.

But then if we have light, why would the other soul be able to manipulate darkness instead ? Or why can’t we create some awesome light shell body for ourselves ? or zap some light beam or whatever ? Well while I dodn’t know (a lot of this is motley supposition), I can hypitetise a few reasons for that:

• 1) Light powers express themselves differently from dark powers. We have powers that the knight presumably doesn’t have. For starters we can bolster others (as seen during boss fights).
  
• 2) We have never seen the SOUL unleashed without being caged to Kris in the dark world. We know Kris seems to need the SOUL in the dark world. But it’s possible it also has the benefit of also stopping us from doing things in the dark world. In the light world, the SOUL is pretty pathetic things only able to fly around and bump into things.
  But in the dark world, a world of imagination where high schools can become knights, barbarian, mages, gain magic or do incredible prowess ? It’s very possible our powers could be alot stronger if not kept in check.
  ( It’s also possible our light powers may be anithetic and poisonous to dark world if not kep in chaeck by our cage as well. Though shining our “light” on Ralsei doesn’t seem to destroy them, only to make them stronger so maybe not.)
  
• 3) And perhaps the most important: We are not connected from the same place. We are from reality. and reality seems to be tied with light just as dream and fiction seems to be tied to Dark. So our determination comes from a place that is effectively from the world of DeltaRune standard ‘darker than dark’.
  The other SOUL may be connected to a place darker than dark. The place titans come from: The Depth.

From a story and thematic point of view it makes a hella sense, it’s classic trope even: the dark mirror antagonist. That was in fact present in UnderTale. In UT, our antagonist was Flowey and what characterizes Flowey ? He was our dark mirror as well. He had the same power we did of loading and saving and his motivation was a twisted version of the player’s: they wanted to explore the world of UnderTale and find all it’s possibilities.

DeltaRune has been an idea of Toby even before UnderTale was, and it shares the same themes of deconstruction of the relation between a player and the game. Then wouldn’t it make a certain sense thematically that our antagonist be another dark mirror of a player ? This time maybe not in the term of having the same power of loading and saving (or if it is the case we have no indication yet) or motivation but ins status: A being from outside the world that impose it’s will in it froma detached position.

TL DR:
So, in short I’m saying:
Player 1 with the Light SOUL, meet “Player” 2 with the Dark SOUL.

Now to be clear I’m not sayi ng it's a real player facing us, obviously. I think we’d have found out by now if DT was secretly multiplayer… But in the sense that a character of the story is put in the same role as aplyer, similar to how flowey was.

The knight we saw in chapter 3 is a shell. Or rather let’s call it for what it is: A vessel.

This does pose a question: If it’s made of concentrated darkness, it should only be able ot exist in the dark world. So how does the knight move in the light world, and can creates fountain ? We sure couldn’t do anything like that as the soul in the Light world. Well the same way we do anything significant in the game. They use another power of the SOUL, one we use ourselves:
Possession.
They have a host in the light world, willing or not. It was likely they had to have an accomplice (beyond Kris) in the light world. But it has been an accomplice creating those fountains, it’d have to be one that could move into the church, the school, the library without being suspicious. And yet it’d have to be always the same since we’re told every time by Darkners the knight created the sanctuary and while they haven’t met the knight directly, I have no reason to doubt this info in particular. But now…

This part I admit is pure speculation but I will say, with possession in the picture, it also opens a very big possibility: ANY lightner could be their "accomplice", whether they want it or not…
It also solves a small mystery; We always wondered who in the light world would be strong enough to be able to carry Undyne without taking a big ole beating. But now, with possession in the picture, well .. “Undyne” herself could be the one running and locking themselves in the bunker in the light world.

TL DR:
So that is my theoryI as to what the knight is:
A mirror SOUL device carrying the will of a creature stuck in the Depths, opposite to the soul we control that carry our will from relaity, acting as our antagonist.
Being able to create a shell of darkness shaped by determination similar to a mini titan ( with which it shares a lot of details both in appearance and structurally)in the dark world. and able to possess a host (if not multiple) in the light world. This soul is the likely eyeball shape we see at the center of the knight ribcage when it roars

So that’s a possible WHAT the knight is, now what about WHO ?

Of Dess knights and Dark SOULs

So now here comes the question: Who could be the knight. Who is exercising their will though the dark soul ?
Well if they are indeed in the Depth;, I’d say we have two prime candidate:

1) Gaster/THE VOICE. They are the one who gave us the connection through the SOUL in the first place. Who else could create another. We don't know anything about their motives at the time but there are few possibilities
- They want to manipulate the prophecy in a certain direction. To create “my deltarune” And they need us to engage with the DT world and accomplish certain actions And what better way than creating their own villain and then having us play the hero to engage us and direct us in a certain course of action ?
- They are actually interested in us and what we can do. So same ideas above, creating a story that will engage us and make us use our determination so they can observe. I mean, of all the time they pipe to comment they finally see our power of determination ina ction, it may nàt be random that it is when we fight the knight. Almost as if they were directly observing then, almost as if they were there…

Or both of the above

2) Dess.One of the main arguments against Dess knight has been “how can she be the Knight when she’s stuck in the code”. This resolves it quite elegantly I think. As for her motives, that has been talked over and over by any dess knight theorist (but mostly I would imagine wanting to get out of this damn dark abyss she’s stuck in, can’t be fun…)
Now HOw could she obtain a device and do this ? Well the same way we did, possibly. Gaster/THE VOICE. If they could give us a connection to the world of DeltaRune why couldn’t they give one to someone else. As for why, well see above… same reasons, they’re just not the one dirtying their hands directly.

TL DR:
With all that the “player” behind the knight is likely either Dess or Gaster

Anticipating some questions and weak points

So I’m anticipating some rebuttals there, which is more than fair enough.
But I'll try to address what I think may be a couple of points that may be raised there. I hope I'm not strawmaning here.

What about the knight lifting their helmet if you try to have Kris thinking about them ? Doesn't that mean the knight has a helmet so it’s not part of them ?

First I think people take this scene a bit too literally. Remember this takes place in Kris' imagination, that we are forcing to go in a particular direction. The fact they can change the image after by thinking of Jockington dins something shows it’s necessarily true. The knight removing their helmet could be a metaphor of revealing their identity, not a literal gesture of removing their helmet.
Second, it’s possible their host wears a helmet in the light world as to not being y’know …recognized if someone sees them.

Why would this hypothetical “Dark SOUL” look like an EYE. Aren’t souls heart shaped ?

Well here's the thing. Because the SOUL we control looks like a red Heart similar to Frisk’s soul in UT, we tend to assume that souls work the same as DeltaRune. But… that’s kind of an assumption, innit ?
Outside of this eye (if my theory is true) we haven’t seen any other souls yet. We have no idea all human souls look like hearts. if they come in different colors like in Ut associated with a virtue. If Monster’s souls look like inverted white hearts…
We have two sources about souls in DR:

First is one book in the library. But that book is extremely vague about the subject. It certainly doesn’t say what souls are like or how they work…

The second is Ralsei telling us that the SOUL is the center of compassion and being. But here the thing is, they never say it’s Kris soul. Or that all souls are the same.. Also Ralsei is a bit sketchy on some subjects. They know the player exists. They talk to Kris about things they clearly do not want us to hear behind our back when they make us look at Susie and they keep certain things close to their chest.
and they knew it was a tutorial. It’s hard to tell how much of what was said here was pure truth or a bit of rehearsed speech. And how much was for Kris and how much was for us.

Finally notice how I’ve capitalized SOUL when talking about the dark SOUL or the one we control and souls where talking of others ? I think it’s very possible that souls may exist in DeltaRune but in a very different sort and capacity than the one we are used to from UnderTale. that they aren’t so.. concrete. They dodn’t manifest directly… I’m not sure but I think it’s a possibility. The SOUL, also known as the DEVICE-SOUL, may be something special that isn't typical in the DR world and only exist either as an extension of ourselves or due to Gaster meddling. So as such the Dark SOUL would also be something special.

-There is no particular reason to think this hypothetical dark SOUL could possess lighteners all willy nilly when we’re a lot more limited.
-Also wouldn’t it mean there’s tons of soulless people in Hometown ? We’d have noticed if everyone was walking like a zombie…

That said, I believe there’s a couple things to address:
First, there's some reasons to think Kris zombie walk without the SOUL is mostly an act. As has been seen in chapter 4 even without the soul, Kris sure cna move around when they want. Well enough to pounce from under a bed or swing a Hokey stick or walk normally to go that piano in the Normal route. And in the weird route if you fail it by not possessing Kris soon enough in Noelle bedroom, they will grab her hand and run away. Quite normally and without shuffling or stumbling, I might add.

Second… What if Kris.. wasn’t soulless ? Or who say the vessel truly need to be soulless to be possessed ? Once again we sort of assume souls work like in UT but it’s very possible they don’t and most rules we think we know are out of the window
Now I'll admit it’s a shaky position. In the weird route we can touch Noelle with the SOUL during that one scene and we don’t possess the same way we do with Kris. So that’s an argument against.

Overall I’ll admit the reliance of a light world host is probably the weakest part of the theory.

The second is that it does hinge on the fact that the SOUL(s ?) as we see it in DeltaRUne are quite different from how souls worked in UnderTale.
We cannot be sure as it is.

----------------------------------------------
So there we go. Uh yeah took a while. Sorry bout that.

[TheForeman7X70]

you said dark souls. i thought you went crazy mode and started talking about hollows... like me.

but, you put so much effort into this... i should just make a document explaining the whole of "color theory" and the idea of "Duralteen" and how it connects to undertale and deltarune... the hollow will have it's (very) short section.

[TheForeman7X70]

... you ignored my knight amalgam theory on your mega knight theory? instead you say the knight is "player 2" and holder of a dark soul.

okay... the main parallel to you in undertale is Flowey, him being what players who play games before Undertale do to every enemy you fight.

Deltarune is for those who played Undertale... Ralsei fits the ideological mirror... he may be an antagonist... i'm not sure how EXACTLY... but it has something with being too nice to people who will go to hurt you no matter what... i theorized he is a demon yes... but do to recent findings... (finally translated Itoki Hana's sleephouse with google translate)... he seems to be a young one...
he's overly formal.. that's the main hint in game.... he's connected to Tenna's "mayflower" quest to the main world from his sci-fi nonsense land.
he wants guns... Ralsei may not want to use them on people... but he likes guns. the ads don't lie.

he may be no more than 12... unlike Jevil... he'd an old creep. Jester to the old god, ate him, joined "Roots" (friend's) army, committed treason on that army, made bug people who can't scream when he kills them for help... and now... doing chaos and random acts of terror... like dating Noelle... "MR. J"... the harlequin architype vs Kris being the pierrot.... oh yeah.. may have been jester to king... but we got that in Deltarune... but he'd free-free of course... your choices don't matter... he gets out no matter what you do... doesn't he?

[кот-слизень]

There are many things in your theory that I completely disagree with:

1) Your theory completely ignores the knight's connection to Asriel.
2) In fact, we have no reason to believe in the concept of a "dark soul."
3) there will be an intersection with my theory, but I think that the similarity of the knight to the titan is not based on a similar composition, but on a similar origin (a similar composition is a consequence), and the knight and the titan exist independently of the dark fountain (the titan is actually a fountain), they both have their own will and therefore have this appearance, they are not ordinary darkners. It is the fountain that creates the appearance of the darkner, and if the darkner is independent of the fountain, it will consist of pure darkness. The titan's offspring don't depend on the fountain either, they just appeared when it was dark in the dark world.

I had more counterarguments, but I forgot them while reading your entire message...

[кот-слизень]

Now I get it, you just came up with a new Dess-Knight theory...

[smuchmuch]

2) In fact, we have no reason to believe in the concept of a "dark soul."

Kinda the entire point of the entire starfts to show why I do think the concept is possible.
Should be noted that maybe rather than calling a "dark SOUL" I should maybe call it a "dark devide". What is simportant in itself is not so much that it may be a soul or not, but réther than it allows someone else to project their will remotely and , possibly, through worlds themselves.
If we have a SOUl like device that allow us remotely project our will in the world of DeltaRune why is it so crazy to think someone else could ?

there will be an intersection with my theory, but I think that the similarity of the knight to the titan is not based on a similar composition, but on a similar origin (a similar composition is a consequence), and the knight and the titan exist independently of the dark fountain (the titan is actually a fountain), they both have their own will and therefore have this appearance, they are not ordinary darkners

Well I don't see any opposition to what I said ?
The titan is a fountain, yes, of that I agree fully. What we fioght is the shell around it.
And the knigh exist independent of fountains since, per mey theory the dark soul/device is the source of it's will.
And as such both are not ordinary darkners since they depends from tberi own sources of will shaoin gthelm directly rather than a fountain.
Don't see were the contradiction lies ? unless I misunderstand you point ?
And because they have the same origin, they have a similar composition is more my point.
There were a bunch more similarities I wanted to point out, symbolically and slall details but.. at this point I felt it was long enough...

Originally posted by кот-слизень:

Now I get it, you just came up with a new Dess-Knight theory...

I gather you are not a Dess knight fan and a big Asriel knight fan.
That's fair.
And yes, she does end being one of two most likely candidates in the end. IF the Dark Device happens to be a way to connect to other worlds.

But the dark device could also jsut be the equivalent of remote proejrvtion thing without needed to be another pkane of existence (.. though then I sort of lose a of the stream there...) Then there's a possibility if iothers. Asriel is not impossible either we... haven't seen him from the start of the game either.

.. Hell he could be hiding int e bunker of a dark world or even in the Depth for all we know... I don't think so but it's always possible.

Still the Who is not the most important part f the theory. Hell maybe shouoldn't have cincluded it at all.. I'd rather keep on the WHAT part as it is to me, the par that hs the most evience strung along. THz Who is more of a suposition thing from there.

[кот-слизень]

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

Kinda the entire point of the entire starfts to show why I do think the concept is possible.
Should be noted that maybe rather than calling a "dark SOUL" I should maybe call it a "dark devide". What is simportant in itself is not so much that it may be a soul or not, but réther than it allows someone else to project their will remotely and , possibly, through worlds themselves.
If we have a SOUl like device that allow us remotely project our will in the world of DeltaRune why is it so crazy to think someone else could ?

I think I should have explained everything in more detail. I meant that your theory makes assumptions that we don't have any facts for. You only provided facts about the knight's analysis. Then you simply stated that the knight is a darkness that takes form through a dark soul, but we have no reason to believe that such a thing exists. To explain my point of view, I will provide an example from my own theory. What I assume the possibility of a darkner to absorb a soul has a justification, we have seen hints of it several times in the game (spamton, sword route, UT). I have not seen hints in the game of the possibility of a soul to create itself a vessel of pure darkness.

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

Well I don't see any opposition to what I said ?
The titan is a fountain, yes, of that I agree fully. What we fioght is the shell around it.
And the knigh exist independent of fountains since, per mey theory the dark soul/device is the source of it's will.
And as such both are not ordinary darkners since they depends from tberi own sources of will shaoin gthelm directly rather than a fountain.
Don't see were the contradiction lies ? unless I misunderstand you point ?
And because they have the same origin, they have a similar composition is more my point.
There were a bunch more similarities I wanted to point out, symbolically and slall details but.. at this point I felt it was long enough...

In your theory, you mention that both the knight and the titan are made of pure darkness because they have their own will, but this idea doesn't take into account the titan spawns (which don't have a will but have the same appearance). My idea suggests that they are independent of the fountain, which means that they are not made of the fountain's darkness but rather of pure darkness. (However, we also have Ralsei and FRIEND, which are also independent of the fountains, but neither of our theories fits...)

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

I gather you are not a Dess knight fan and a big Asriel knight fan.

Not really, but the knight has a lot of connections with Asriel, which means we should probably take that into account.

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

That's fair.
And yes, she does end being one of two most likely candidates in the end. IF the Dark Device happens to be a way to connect to other worlds.

But the dark device could also jsut be the equivalent of remote proejrvtion thing without needed to be another pkane of existence (.. though then I sort of lose a of the stream there...) Then there's a possibility if iothers. Asriel is not impossible either we... haven't seen him from the start of the game either.

.. Hell he could be hiding int e bunker of a dark world or even in the Depth for all we know... I don't think so but it's always possible.

Well, if you choose one character, you lose the opportunity to explain the knight's other connections (if you say that the knight is Dess, you don't consider the connections with Asriel and vice versa). This means that your theory needs to be improved (in terms of the knight's personality).


Additional question: how does your theory explain the image of two knights and a titan?

[smuchmuch]

What I assume the possibility of a darkner to absorb a soul has a justification, we have seen hints of it several times in the game (spamton, sword route, UT).

With respect I isagree with two of these jsutifacation (and doubt another). In fact I would argue one plays in my favor

1) Undertale is not DeltaRune and once agaion too often we assume that because of similarities in apperance, rules would work the same. But even if it did, even if Monsters could absorb human in DR souls in the same way they did In UT...
Monsters AREN'T darkners. Both monsters and human alike are lightners. This doesn't prove anything for Darkners.

2) I very much disagee with what we see in the sword route. You say that the end show pixelated mini Kris or mini Kris is you will, aborbing a copy of our soul thus elevating them to a different status...

But that is very much not the case. Look at how the games load each time. The copy of the SOUL appears FIRST then mini Kris is loaded around it. And as copy goes it's very likely heavily linked to the soul if not the SOUL itself transported intot he creen, same way we're transported into battle boxes for battlesBecause if you loose in the ERAM fight, the soul shatter and you get a regular game over, not jsut the game over of the screen trunign red and the game startng over.
The SOUL that appears in the screen is not jsut a copy, it's a projection that is only possioble through the ODDCONTROLER. And we can see as much because at the end if/when Susie swats the odd controler from Kris hands, the mini Kris just.. disapear cease to exist.

If Mini Kris was an darkner entity that aborbed a soul (copy or not) to become independent, then they could jsut.. keep existing. But mini Kris is not, they are a projection. a projection. A shell of pixesl created around a projecion of the soul.
(So you asked an exemple of a soul creating something around them.. there ya go)

3) Remains Spamton. Sure, I agree Spamton thinks that he can absorb our SOUL. But the fact is we have no idea if he's right. Maybe he could, maybe he couldn't but as far as we can tel if he wins hios boss fight, the SOUL just shatterds so.... on this pint we'll never know if he was right.

In the end, it is possible a darkner could indeed absorb a lightner soul and gain powers from it, I just don't think this is what the knight is.

but this idea doesn't take into account the titan spawns (which don't have a will but have the same appearance)

It does (see my images of the comparaison of the titans and knight, I use them as an exemple). The titan spawns are simply extension of the titan, similar to how the knight sword are an extension fo the knight. They are not independant entities. If the titan is deispeeled, so do all the spawns.

Not really, but the knight has a lot of connections with Asriel, which means we should probably take that into account.

Asriel and Dess having been very close and the Dreemur family to the Hollidays, there vbery few connection of one character to the knight that can't be explained for the other in very similar way, I feel.

Additional question: how does your theory explain the image of two knights and a titan?

If memory serves this image is a rough illustrations of a narrtion, so it's mor of a view of the mind, not an accurate description

I never seen this image as two knight and a titan, but rather three titans. The two in the back being simply more stylised and less detailled. Jsut loo,how these figures int he background have their legs behind the trees in the background.. It means they are aren't floating, tey are ENORMOUS and looming over the whole scene. Unless knights can grow to enormous proportiosn as well... yeah more likely to be titans.

That it makes them look like the knight may be forshadowing sure (but if anything then it reinforces just how similar the knight and titans are, at least in general design (dark humaoid shape, white outline, white star-ish face)

But pretty sure it is meant to be three titans anyway.

[кот-слизень]

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

2) I very much disagee with what we see in the sword route. You say that the end show pixelated mini Kris or mini Kris is you will, aborbing a copy of our soul thus elevating them to a different status...

But that is very much not the case. Look at how the games load each time. The copy of the SOUL appears FIRST then mini Kris is loaded around it. And as copy goes it's very likely heavily linked to the soul if not the SOUL itself transported intot he creen, same way we're transported into battle boxes for battlesBecause if you loose in the ERAM fight, the soul shatter and you get a regular game over, not jsut the game over of the screen trunign red and the game startng over.
The SOUL that appears in the screen is not jsut a copy, it's a projection that is only possioble through the ODDCONTROLER. And we can see as much because at the end if/when Susie swats the odd controler from Kris hands, the mini Kris just.. disapear cease to exist.

If Mini Kris was an darkner entity that aborbed a soul (copy or not) to become independent, then they could jsut.. keep existing. But mini Kris is not, they are a projection. a projection. A shell of pixesl created around a projecion of the soul.
(So you asked an exemple of a soul creating something around them.. there ya go)

I don't think there's a difference between projection and copy in this case. This second soul in the game, at first, just existed, but later, in the battle with ERAM, it began to take real damage from the events in the game (by the way, the damage taken in the dark world is also transferred to the light world, but that's not the point), and even later, we began to fully control this soul, regardless of the one in Kris, even when Kris drops the controller, we are still able to control the mini-Kris.
mini-Kris doesn't disappear, it just goes behind the screen...
The soul didn't create a new vessel for itself; it inhabited an existing one.

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

3) Remains Spamton. Sure, I agree Spamton thinks that he can absorb our SOUL. But the fact is we have no idea if he's right. Maybe he could, maybe he couldn't but as far as we can tel if he wins hios boss fight, the SOUL just shatterds so.... on this pint we'll never know if he was right.

In the end, it is possible a darkner could indeed absorb a lightner soul and gain powers from it, I just don't think this is what the knight is.

even one example is enough, so we know that although it may be possible, in your case, we have no evidence that a "dark soul" can create a vessel of pure darkness.

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

It does (see my images of the comparaison of the titans and knight, I use them as an exemple). The titan spawns are simply extension of the titan, similar to how the knight sword are an extension fo the knight. They are not independant entities. If the titan is deispeeled, so do all the spawns.

Titan spawns existed in the dark world long before the titan appeared, which means that spawns are not one and the same as the titan. They are quite "independent entities".

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

Asriel and Dess having been very close and the Dreemur family to the Hollidays, there vbery few connection of one character to the knight that can't be explained for the other in very similar way, I feel.

we cannot ignore any connections the knight has with the characters.
a darkner can even be a concept (not have as such an item on which it is based), we already had many examples of such darkners.

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

If memory serves this image is a rough illustrations of a narrtion, so it's mor of a view of the mind, not an accurate description

I never seen this image as two knight and a titan, but rather three titans. The two in the back being simply more stylised and less detailled. Jsut loo,how these figures int he background have their legs behind the trees in the background.. It means they are aren't floating, tey are ENORMOUS and looming over the whole scene. Unless knights can grow to enormous proportiosn as well... yeah more likely to be titans.

That it makes them look like the knight may be forshadowing sure (but if anything then it reinforces just how similar the knight and titans are, at least in general design (dark humaoid shape, white outline, white star-ish face)

But pretty sure it is meant to be three titans anyway.

here's a picture:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxM1iCjXOQIjvuPo1D6coNUwL1BVJewoaL?si=XrIuY3Q46mmiqwLr

I don't believe it's a coincidence. Toby Fox couldn't have meant the three Titans in the picture and accidentally drawn two knights. Toby Fox had the Tenna design ready before the second chapter was released, so it's unlikely that he didn't have a design for the main antagonist. It's impossible to accidentally draw creatures that resemble knights so much.
Also, they're not big; they're just standing closer than the Titan.

[smuchmuch]

Originally posted by кот-слизень:

mini-Kris doesn't disappear, it just goes behind the screen...
The soul didn't create a new vessel for itself; it inhabited an existing one.

Mini Kris soes in fact dispear. If you do bring mini Kris out when Susie is here but DON'T swing the sword at her (which many people do so they gt the "huig" scene instead where Kris desperately bring Susie close to them in an atempt to save her life and Mini Kris does move away fromt he screen by down), you instead keep mini kris away from her, then chose "No" when she ask if Krris is enjoying this then, she will say "here's an idea why dodn't you stop playing then". She will unplug the controller and Mini Kris sill explode similar to how they die in game. (leaving no soul copy behind)

Source: I replayed through that goshdarn fight right now to check.

So yeah that lets me think that even in situation where mini Kris oes off screen, they doin't last long anyway as soon as they get away from us/Kris stops playing for good.

Originally posted by кот-слизень:

even one example is enough, so we know that although it may be possible,

But it's not trully an examp;e as in the end. We never see Spamton doing it or the results of such a thing. Just him saying he might.

I understand why you take it as evidence, it is a point of data. I am not saying it should be ingored but any means but I'm saying it is an unreliable one.

Originally posted by кот-слизень:

in your case, we have no evidence that a "dark soul" can create a vessel of pure darkness.

But we do have an example of pure darkness being shaped solid by will.
The titan itself (a dark fountain creating for itself a body qhapêd of pure darkness who happens to be the same thiong the knight sword is made of aseen by the dark shard who even appears as a dark triangle with a white outine by the way...)

Originally posted by кот-слизень:

Titan spawns existed in the dark world long before the titan appeared, which means that spawns are not one and the same as the titan. They are quite "independent entities".

I genuinely do not see this anywhere in game.
The first titan spawns that ever appear are the two that serves as mini bosses after the titan summning (it is still in pillar form sure but it is there as shown by him already sprouting arms and almost lasering the party)

I've heard some people saying the thing that cna attack you in some dark rooms may be titan spawns but there's no way to confirm it given we don't see anything not is there any particular music cue to indicate it is so.

Originally posted by кот-слизень:

we cannot ignore any connections the knight has with the characters.
a darkner can even be a concept (not have as such an item on which it is based), we already had many examples of such darkners.

That is absolutly true. andI fully concede the point but do not see how that change majorly their relation with either DDess or Asriel. I apologize if I'm being thick about this.

Originally posted by кот-слизень:

Also, they're not big; they're just standing closer than the Titan.

Noope, here's the full version of the image without the weird mist:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/wllhba/what_are_the_titans_i_mean_we_know_how_they_come/
look closer, their feet disapear behind the trees. If they're knights then they are HUGE or perspective is weirdly broken in this image

I feel we're not going to convince each others here. There are some weaknesses in my theory and quite a few asumptions, this much I concede but I don't tink enouht o compellty invalidate it at the moment either.

Well see if chapter 5 brings more answers

[кот-слизень]

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

Mini Kris soes in fact dispear.

Okay, I believe you, but considering that the copy/projection of the soul inside the mini-Kris was also kind of a part of the game (most likely, this soul appeared because of the ODDCONTROLLER). So it's basically logical that it disappeared after disconnecting this controller and shutting down the game.

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

But we do have an example of pure darkness being shaped solid by will.
The titan itself (a dark fountain creating for itself a body qhapêd of pure darkness who happens to be the same thiong the knight sword is made of aseen by the dark shard who even appears as a dark triangle with a white outine by the way...)

Well, this is very indirect and unreliable evidence, because we have titan spawns that don't have will, but they look the same (they're not dependent on the titan, and I'll prove it later), and the titan doesn't have armor or weapons, and it's unclear where the Knight got it from.

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

I genuinely do not see this anywhere in game.
The first titan spawns that ever appear are the two that serves as mini bosses after the titan summning (it is still in pillar form sure but it is there as shown by him already sprouting arms and almost lasering the party)

I've heard some people saying the thing that cna attack you in some dark rooms may be titan spawns but there's no way to confirm it given we don't see anything not is there any particular music cue to indicate it is so.

In completely dark locations, we are sometimes chased by something that is identical in shape to the titan spawns. Additionally, these black balls sometimes roam the locations, and they are also titan spawns (they are literally present in the titan's attacks).

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

That is absolutly true. andI fully concede the point but do not see how that change majorly their relation with either DDess or Asriel. I apologize if I'm being thick about this.

I mean, the theory has to be able to explain why the knight has parallels with both Asriel and Dess (Dessriel doesn't work as an explanation, and even Noelle isn't obsessed enough with Susie to steal her theme song, let alone her final attack).

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

Noope, here's the full version of the image without the weird mist:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/wllhba/what_are_the_titans_i_mean_we_know_how_they_come/
look closer, their feet disapear behind the trees. If they're knights then they are HUGE or perspective is weirdly broken in this image

Okay, they might be big (in fact, if they can change shape, what's stopping them from growing?), but they're still smaller than the Titan and much closer to us than it is.

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

I feel we're not going to convince each others here. There are some weaknesses in my theory and quite a few asumptions, this much I concede but I don't tink enouht o compellty invalidate it at the moment either.

In fact, the main complaint is that your theory cannot explain why the knight has so many connections with Asriel, while also having antlers.

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

Well see if chapter 5 brings more answers

I just want to freeze the Knight to death in the fifth chapter (any method of execution is acceptable)...

[smuchmuch]

Originally posted by кот-слизень:

In fact, the main complaint is that your theory cannot explain why the knight has so many connections with Asriel, while also having antlers.

Well the antlers are explained, jsut liek the bat and th whole deer imagery, if Dess the one exerting her will. Or if the dark device is using her souls evne if it's someone else using her...

The resemblance to Asriel... er... look I'm going to be honnest, I jsut.. do'nt see them that much in DR ? We haven't seen DR Asriel yet so... I dodn't see how we cna seem sesemblance here ?

I see semblance between the knight and god of hyper death Asriel from UT but.. that jsut feel like re-using visual design elements for a cool final boss ?

Like floating and after images jsut make you look otherworldy. Asriel was ag od, the knight is something beyond normal darkner/lighters.

And having a star attack ? Tenna has one too (in fact that looks closer to Asriel attack for it's projectile since the star is five pointed not six pointed like the knight). Also the star moitifs of the knight attack seems more associated with the Depth and titans. In the code the element used by the knight and the titan, that the shadow mantle protects again and the darjk shard has bonus against is called Dark/Star

(Oh yeah the fact that the shadow mantle give estra protection from the titan and titans swpans as well as the knight feels like another elements of liason of having similar nature between them.)

Originally posted by кот-слизень:

I just want to freeze the Knight to death in the fifth chapter (any method of execution is acceptable)...

Ah ! (also freeze ? someone is doing a weirdy, I see)
I suspect you are not the only one...
But I doubt the knight will go down by chapter 5 already (even int he weird route, the content is so far not that different fromte normal route when all said and done...)
Sure their reveal as soon as chapter 3 end was an interesting and susprising one but I don't think they are going down before.. at least chapter 6.
(If they o doan by chapter 5, I sure will have egg all over my face... but I doubt it, feels a tad too anticlimatic after all the build up..)

Y'know why I am a bit sad that no one else beyong you or Foreman is commenting (I guess a freaking essai of theory is not fun to read, that's ...fair enough), I do appreciate the feedback.

[кот-слизень]

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

I see semblance between the knight and god of hyper death Asriel from UT but.. that jsut feel like re-using visual design elements for a cool final boss ?

Like floating and after images jsut make you look otherworldy. Asriel was ag od, the knight is something beyond normal darkner/lighters.

Toby Fox is known for his attention to detail, and it's unlikely that he would have added so many parallels between the knight and Asriel without a reason. I believe that almost nothing in deltarune happens for no reason.

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

(If they o doan by chapter 5, I sure will have egg all over my face... but I doubt it, feels a tad too anticlimatic after all the build up..)

Okay, I'll keep this message in mind...

Originally posted by smuchmuch:

Y'know why I am a bit sad that no one eslse is commentoing (I guess a freaking essai of theory is not fun to read, that's ...fair enough)

I do appreciate the feedback.

Most likely, a larger number of people have read it, but the most common commenters on theories are other theorists, and they often comment when they disagree with something.

It was a pleasure to talk to you.