Pink Coin Item Buffs/Changes

[FallingAxis]

The Pink Coin armours/weapons you can get in Chapter 5 are all really cool and offer a memento of your favourite flowers, and allow you to actually pick what suits your playstyle.. But that's not actually fully the case.
See, the Flower Items are all really cool but actually understanding how they work and where they're all useful is where things start to seem more clear cut for what the best of these items are, and I've managed to fully narrow it down to what should be picked NO MATTER what route you're on, and that's not a good thing.

Those Flower Items are the YellowHat, the O.Glove, and the GreenApron. Let me explain why they're the best:

YellowHat

• 4AT/4DF/4MG. Already these stats are brilliant
  
• +20% Skill Effectiveness. That makes every spell way better in every capacity. Healing, offense, it has it all
  
• Those 2 factors combined make it a genuine unit of an item that's good on everyone (except Kris)

GreenApron

• 7DF. The second highest flat defense bonus in the game
  
• Recover 16% Max Health on Defend. It's a nice passive bonus on paper, but the goal is to not be hit
  
• While the goal isn't to be hit, the defensive bonus is brilliant, and works best while on Kris. We end up in alot of situations where Kris should defend to get TP for Susie's Rude Buster, so it's a brilliant option for them. If we had this in the Knight fight, ShadowMantle in slot 1 and GreenApron in slot 2 would've been a godsend

O.Glove

• 4AT/8DF. The highest DF armour in game, and tied for highest AT. Makes Susie a tank
  
• Scythemare costs 20% TP. This bonus is not what should be sought after, the stats are.
  
• The stats are brilliant, even if the bonus is meh. Not exactly sure why Scythemare is even tacked onto the gloves when Orange is all about fighting, though I suppose a Rude Buster upgrade would be obnoxious

I've found that no matter the route or path you're taking, whether it's violence or pacifism, these are the best options. And that sucks because I would love a petal from the others too. I want that variety.
So, that's what this is about. Ideas.
My ideas for how each of the other Flower Items should be improved to make them viable options (the keyword is VIABLE. They should stand side by side with the other Flower Items, not replace them)

SethSpecs

• 4DF/6MG. These stats are very nice, the only saving grace this armour has.
  
• 20% increase to Iframes. This is not good (1.33 seconds to 1.6 seconds in normal Soul Mode. 0.8 seconds to 0.97 seconds in Bravery Mode..). 20% is not enough, at all. The only reason the Cloudy Glasses worked in UT is because of 2 reasons: A flat 1 second increase to iframes, and the fact it could be stacked with the Torn Notebook for a total of 1.5s iframe time increase. Not to mention being in iframes disables grazing..
  
• Currently, the worst. For too many reasons. So how would I improve it without making it as powerful as the Cloudy Glasses? Allow grazing to be possible while in iframes. Balancing would need to be done around this, but it creates a very nice bonus that doesn't accelerate it too far ahead of the other options

AquaKnife

• 10AT/2DF. Currently Kris' best defensive weapon? I guess??
  
• Critical Window increased. This lowkey sucks. It extends the crit window forward. Alot of attacks you will make in game have bars that move at the same time, meaning the crit window becomes a null asset in those instances where you'd absolutely want to maximise damage, especially with Susie.
  
• The AquaKnife is THE single most replaceable option out of all the Flower Items. The BlackShard already renders it null and void, and you may think "well I could give it to Noelle and have Kris hold the AquaKnife", but why would you do that?? In a pacifist run, you'd want Noelle to have magical and defensive options, something the BlackShard gives her none of, and she has the weakest HP and DF rn. "What about a run where I'm being violent?". That's where the TwistedSword comes in. Equal in power to the BlackShard, and Noelle can also equip it. The AquaKnife is still just a null option
  
• Sadly this one is the hardest to think of a suitable buff for because it's so replaceable. I think the only way to properly buff it is by changing the ability. In the game's code, it's been noted that we could actually have multiple attacking bars for each character. I think letting AquaKnife have that as an exclusive ability would give it a suitable buff that'd make it viable. It may need an AT nerf to make it suitable for usage though

BlueShoes → BlueTutu

• Yep you read that right. BlueShoes should be scrapped entirely. Not because it's bad, no not by any means is it bad. But because it's immediately replaced by the BrokenScarf, which is just outright better for Ralsei and holds way more emotional value.
  
• So, why BlueTutu? Well, for a few reasons: 1. It's Blue's armour piece, and the counterpart of the Old Tutu from Undertale, 2. It'd still primarily be Ralsei who wears it, but could be given to others like Noelle or Kris (Susie would rather die), 3. It'd be a cute call back to Ch4, with the "YOUR TAKING TOO TOO" line
  
• I'm not good at assigning stats, and that's a problem because they shared stats with the SethSpecs, yet another reason SethSpecs is outclassed. I'd say 6DF/3MG is a good basis?
  
• Pacify0TP is kinda... redundant. Pacify already costs 16TP, an amount you get from just Defending. It's useless, but used to be countered by the fact that it was a weapon. Now that it isn't, what should be done for it? I have but a single idea that may be broken
  
• HealingRain. HealPrayer changes into HealingRain. It'd allow Party wide healing, with the detriment of costing more TP (50% seems suitable), and the healing would be weaker than HealPrayer. The only reason I'm saying HealPrayer and not ReviveSong is because the armour would be an option for Noelle as well
  
• All of this perfectly encompasses who Blue is as a character. They have a widespreading generosity for everyone, as do both Ralsei and Noelle. This fits waaaaay better than BlueShoes ever could, and it lets us finally utilise full team healing without Kris, who seems to always never want to use it when in a certain battle with a certain enemy... cough cough, the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Knight.

These changes would elevate the weaker options to an equal playing field with the current top picks without entirely tipping the scales in any one favour. With proper balancing, they can all stand side by side rather than on different steps of the staircase they're currently standing on.

[Erolsaurus]

I did NOT know the orange gloves gave you that much defense.. Should have shown the defense values when you're buying the item, Toby.

[lieutenantkirtar]

The fact that two of the items make it easier to pacify enemies seems to indicate there will be a lot more tired enemies in the coming chapters. I at least hope those TP reducing abilities are not as useless as they seem.

[dragontrainerdrago202]

this is assuming toby doesn't already know how strong these items can be and isn't already thinking of ways to balance them with the chapter 6 or 7 enemies.

[FallingAxis]

Originally posted by lieutenantkirtar:

The fact that two of the items make it easier to pacify enemies seems to indicate there will be a lot more tired enemies in the coming chapters. I at least hope those TP reducing abilities are not as useless as they seem.

You could indeed make that argument, but again with the BlueShoes, it means nothing. You just defend and can cast Pacify. BlueShoes are still incredibly redundant.
Also, Noelle is likely to become a party member, a party member that has access to a cheaper Scythemare called SleepMist. SleepMist requires 2 defends, and we know that she prefers to follow behind Susie. So in that situation, the Scythemare passive is still useless. Money is NOT hard to come by so stalling TP for it is a worthless venture.

[FallingAxis]

Originally posted by dragontrainerdrago202:

this is assuming toby doesn't already know how strong these items can be and isn't already thinking of ways to balance them with the chapter 6 or 7 enemies.

You say this and in some capacities it's true but.. that doesn't actually mean anything for the 3 items I said need changing.
AquaKnife is still incredibly weak with a garbage passive, and the likelihood of facing off against Dark element enemies in Ch6 & Ch7 is very high, which both the BlackShard and TwistedSword are built to deal 10x damage to
SethSpecs' passive is awful, like I gave you what the calculations are for it. In no situation does it prove useful.
BlueShoes is still made redundant by the BrokenScarf and has a garbage passive

You can't balance them around the Ch6 and Ch7 enemies when what they offer is just... bad

[Cacledemon]

The only concept for Aqua's Knife i can think of is either 1) hitting crit will automaticaly crit for all 2 (with Noelle)/3 party members if they're also attacking, 2) make it absurdly high damage weapon like Real Knife (but you have to hit multiple crits) or 3) hitting with it has a chance to double/triple your damage.
Although i don't know how realistic these 3 options are, since it's just a Toy Knife.
The idea for all party members heal with Blue's Shoes is good tho, because we only have 3 main bossfights where Ralsei can heal 2 members at once, and classic only one member.
There's also not much variety of items that heals everyone too.
For SethSpecs rather than having invincibility frames, why not have a passive shield which can block some obstacles (like FluffyGuard Ralsei's ACT) but move in circles so you can't cheese the fight and still could dodge? (For example Dreamshield amulet in Hollow Knight)

Nothing comes to mind for Orange's Glove special, i can only say what if it DOES hint for more "tired" enemies in future Chapters, it's sucks. Who uses this strat to spare enemies anyway, let alone the fact what we use it like...twice (?) in 5 Chapters so far (Jevil fight and Werewire, a common enemy)

[FallingAxis]

It gets even worse when you think about it like this:

If we got all 6 Flower Items, I STILL wouldn't equip the AquaKnife, BlueShoes, or SethSpecs, because they have far better replacements or detriments that make it worse

[Timey Whimey]

BlueShoes are good, they give a ton of defense for a "weapon" and give more magic than the BrokenScarf, making it the superior pick for pacifists if you want a Ralsei weapon.

I think SethSpecs are almost unjudgeable as they are right now because we don't know how necessary I-frames will be in future fights.

Originally posted by FallingAxis:

That's where the TwistedSword comes in. Equal in power to the BlackShard, and Noelle can also equip it. The AquaKnife is still just a null option

The Twisted Sword is exclusive to the aborted weird route. Aqua Knife is for those who don't want to deal with the potential consequences of an aborted weird route.

[FallingAxis]

Originally posted by Cacledemon:

The only concept for Aqua's Knife i can think of is either 1) hitting crit will automaticaly crit for all 2 (with Noelle)/3 party members if they're also attacking, 2) make it absurdly high damage weapon like Real Knife (but you have to hit multiple crits) or 3) hitting with it has a chance to double/triple your damage.
Although i don't know how realistic these 3 options are, since it's just a Toy Knife.
The idea for all party members heal with Blue's Shoes is good tho, because we only have 3 main bossfights where Ralsei can heal 2 members at once, and classic only one member.
There's also not much variety of items that heals everyone too.
For SethSpecs rather than having invincibility frames, why not have a passive shield which can block some obstacles (like FluffyGuard Ralsei's ACT) but move in circles so you can't cheese the fight and still could dodge? (For example Dreamshield amulet in Hollow Knight)

Nothing comes to mind for Orange's Glove special, i can only say what if it DOES hint for more "tired" enemies in future Chapters, it's sucks. Who uses this strat to spare enemies anyway, let alone the fact what we use it like...twice (?) in 5 Chapters so far (Jevil fight and Werewire, a common enemy) :momozzz:

When it comes to AquaKnife, it should represent what Aqua is as a character. Her having a higher crit ratio just.. isn't her, but her having multiple knife swings? That's absolutely in line for her character
BlueShoes needs to be deleted for the BlueTutu. Blue is my favourite flower and it sucks I can't use his reward because of the BrokenScarf just being better
That SethSpecs idea is interesting though might not work too well. It has the negative of keeping away bullets from being grazed, which is the entire issue with SethSpecs. That's why I suggested the idea of keeping the ability to graze whilst in iframes.

As for O.Glove, I've been thinking on it. Tiring enemies doesn't make too much sense. I'm not bothered that it's there, but since it's Susie exclusive and Orange is known for being a fighter and facing things head on, her armour should represent that. So, why not change Rude Buster entirely? The entire concept of Rude Buster is "dealing Rude damage". What if the damage was some different special element that works against certain enemies. Not sure what that would be though, like Dark Buster seems a fun idea? It'd be Toby's discretion there because only he knows what enemies will be in the future chapters

[FallingAxis]

Originally posted by Timey Whimey:

BlueShoes are good, they give a ton of defense for a "weapon" and give more magic than the BrokenScarf, making it the superior pick for pacifists if you want a Ralsei weapon.

I think SethSpecs are almost unjudgeable as they are right now because we don't know how necessary I-frames will be in future fights

Originally posted by FallingAxis:

That's where the TwistedSword comes in. Equal in power to the BlackShard, and Noelle can also equip it. The AquaKnife is still just a null option

The Twisted Sword is exclusive to the aborted weird route. Aqua Knife is for those who don't want to deal with the potential consequences of an aborted weird route.

I explained that even in just a regular pacifist route, the BrokenScarf is still superior. The only upside it has it +1DF/+3MG extra. That's NOT enough of a gap when the BrokenScarf gives Ralsei more damage than the PuppetScarf. And you seem to forget damage is going to be a necessity since alot of fights can't be won with mercy
SethSpecs has a clear and cut calculation for how many of the iframes are increased, and it's not enough to warrant it. Not to mention the TP gain will be slashed.

Even in just a regular geno run, Kris will benefit far more from the BlackShard, and no you won't want to give it to Noelle because, news flash, IceShock is still way stronger of an option so Magic related weapons will still be dominant for her, meaning the AquaKnife is still replaceable.

[FallingAxis]

The AquaKnife feels like a massive fumble tbh
The only upside it has is the +2DF on Kris, who really does not need it

God it gets even worse when you realise the WoodBlade2 was introduced earlier on and has the same exact damage, it's saddddd

[Timey Whimey]

Originally posted by FallingAxis:

Originally posted by Timey Whimey:

BlueShoes are good, they give a ton of defense for a "weapon" and give more magic than the BrokenScarf, making it the superior pick for pacifists if you want a Ralsei weapon.

I think SethSpecs are almost unjudgeable as they are right now because we don't know how necessary I-frames will be in future fights


The Twisted Sword is exclusive to the aborted weird route. Aqua Knife is for those who don't want to deal with the potential consequences of an aborted weird route.

I explained that even in just a regular pacifist route, the BrokenScarf is still superior. The only upside it has it +1DF/+3MG extra. That's NOT enough of a gap when the BrokenScarf gives Ralsei more damage than the PuppetScarf. And you seem to forget damage is going to be a necessity since alot of fights can't be won with mercy

+3 MG is a huge stat difference.

We don't actually know if damage will be a necessity. The only two fights so far that REQUIRE attacking are the Knight and the Titan. So it's entirely within the realm of possibility we can get through a pure pacifist run of c6.

Originally posted by FallingAxis:

SethSpecs has a clear and cut calculation for how many of the iframes are increased, and it's not enough to warrant it. Not to mention the TP gain will be slashed.

In a scenario where you are getting the moment you run out of I-frames (eg. the Knights sword wall attack) SethSpecs effectively reduce damage taken by 20%. Also, SethSpecs grant the highest magic boost in the game, even better than the Dealmaker.

Originally posted by FallingAxis:

Even in just a regular geno run, Kris will benefit far more from the BlackShard, and no you won't want to give it to Noelle because, news flash, IceShock is still way stronger of an option so Magic related weapons will still be dominant for her, meaning the AquaKnife is still replaceable.

Yeah, you're probably correct. AquaKnife sucks.

(Although interestingly, a Crit from the AquaKnife deals more damage than a near-crit from the BlackShard, so if you struggle with timing, the AquaKnife could be a good QoL choice)

[Juno Brier]

Imagine we get an enemy that must be defeated by attacking, only takes significant damage from criticals, and takes less damage from the Black Shard.

[hollowarrior_1]

Originally posted by dragontrainerdrago202:

this is assuming toby doesn't already know how strong these items can be and isn't already thinking of ways to balance them with the chapter 6 or 7 enemies.

say that again...

[FallingAxis]

Originally posted by Timey Whimey:

+3 MG is a huge stat difference.

We don't actually know if damage will be a necessity. The only two fights so far that REQUIRE attacking are the Knight and the Titan. So it's entirely within the realm of possibility we can get through a pure pacifist run of c6.

Fighting is all but guaranteed to occur.
The Knight and the Titan are not the only instances of required attacking either, since Giga Queen mandates it as well, but that's besides the point
I'm not saying a pure pacifist run isn't possible, but fighting is more than likely to occur in these upcoming chapters, since this is outright referred to as the "storm" in the phrase "silly before the storm". +3 MG is a brilliant amount, but again it's just not enough to warrant replacing the BrokenScarf. That's why I suggested the BlueTutu instead, it just suits everything much better and allows them all to show off

Originally posted by Timey Whimey:

In a scenario where you are getting the moment you run out of I-frames (eg. the Knights sword wall attack) SethSpecs effectively reduce damage taken by 20%. Also, SethSpecs grant the highest magic boost in the game, even better than the Dealmaker.

SethSpecs stats are really nice. But that's the only thing nice about it.
You brought up the Sword Hallway attack, but that will still shred your health because it doesn't use iframes. 20% of 0 is still 0. Again, the bonus is useless