Some things that I haven't seen people talking about

[BrightStarling]

So...

1. How does King know about Queen when it is suggested that the second dark world is created after closing the first one? (the dog working in the computer lab, Berdley and Noel's positioning in the computer lab). On top of than Seam appears to know about bosses we haven't met yet and knows we will meet a specific one next. If Darkners are incompatible with other darkworlds, how can he know this? How can he know who we face next when Kris had not yet made the presumed chapter 3 fountain?

2. Lightners need to infuse their determination/will into their blade and stab the Earth to form a dark world, right? Well, chapter 2's dark world feels very centered on Noel (Queen's almost obsession with her, the December section, Noel's room basically being the penthouse of the mansion, the time with Susie being set up so perfectly for her, etc). Coincidence? Can't find a desire/person/unified will in the first chapter though.

3. I don't think Kris's zombie walk is from removing the soul. (They did the zombie walk before removing the soul in chapter 1, and we could not control Kris's movement during that time. They also appear to have done this at least once before the start of the game given the stain on their floor at the start of chapter 1.

4. Can Ralsei control how we interact with the world of Deltarune? We know his town is the same name as the savefile. He also tells us (probably the player) to save ad come back (referring to the savefile), but the floppy disk has no idea what saving is. So, it's at least not common knowledge (and yes, I've heard people say that's a joke about using floppy discs as icons). I've also seen people talk about Ralsei talking to Kris while the player's attention is focused on Susie in both chapters. Other than when Kris removes the soul, these are the only times where our perspective appears to be controlled by a character, and Ralsei leads the player and/or Kris in what sounds like the beginning of some kind of meditative practice. Susie and Noel remark how they thought they heard Kris when the player selects something. Does that mean the player isn't limited to the soul in Kris?

5. The prophecy bothers me. The heroes are only supposed to appear after the Earth takes her final breath. The Lightner's world and Ralsei's Dark world don't appear to fit that description (nor any darkworld really). That and according to the wiki, Ralsei claims the prophecy is foretold by time and space. Darkners from other darkworlds know it too, yet Ralsei put effort into memorizing it. Then there's the fact that the Roaring is supposedly part of the prophecy, but Queen didn't know about it. I don't really get how that works. Also, "banish the Angel's heaven" sounds like sealing the dark fountain of the angel's personal utopia/darkworld, but the Lightners also have religous beliefs about it...

[kanna]

1. I've also wondered in general about characters from different Dark Worlds knowing (about) each other, and I've come to believe they're just all connected. No hard evidence. I think it just makes sense that it isn't ONLY the two connected classrooms, but all Dark Worlds have some kind of way to travel between them, at least for those who know the way. The Kings from Chapter 1 sealed away Jevil together, so I figure they would all know a thing or two about this stuff. (Ralsei's depth of knowledge is very interesting to see for sure. Sometimes I think he uses his cauldron to see what's happening in other worlds. (Kind of cliche I know, but it fits imo.)

2. Wow, nice observations about Chapter 2's world being molded to fit Noelle's desires. Makes sense that even if she didn't literally "create" that world, her invocation/summoning of the entrance to that world was able to influence aspects of how it manifests for her. (If you want to get into some very spooky metaphysical territory, you can play around with the idea that the Dark Worlds other than Ralsei's were "created" by the Lightners that made them, but that means you have to entertain the idea that all the existence and memories and connections between worlds that we see come up were *also* invented right on the spot with the creation of a dark fountain. I'm not dipping my toes in those waters until I see proof, although I guess there's definitely precedence for this kind of thing in Undertale, with Goner Kid's infamous dialogue and all that.)

3. 100% agreed with this. Even if this is a different world, does it make sense for souls not to be the will/determination of a human just like in Undertale? Currently I'm on the side of the idea that Kris was possessed by something before the game starts. I think it's related to the importance and meaning of game save file (which are directly connected to the player's representation as a soul), but nobody around here seems to want to talk about that, lol. (Spoilers at the link for those who want to see this stuff for themselves first https://deltarune.fandom.com/wiki/SAVE )

4. - 5. I might comment on later...

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

1. So this is still in speculation territory, but the way I interpret it is, Darkners are any inanimate objects you give a roleplay identity and backstory to. When a dark fountain is formed, any object that was treated this way becomes a darkner, and the backstory and any adventures you made up with them in the past suddenly becomes their history. The same is true for the world itself. Now the reason darkners turn to stone in other dark worlds is because the object that had a character associated with it in one room, never had that association in another room. For example, Lancer and Rouxls's cards were imagined as their characters in the abandoned classroom, but nowhere else. So taking those cards to the computer lab's dark world doesn't work for them as these characters have no made up history attached to that room for the fountain to generate. However, if a character was kept on a person in multiple rooms they could theoretically exist in any of those dark worlds.

As for how King and Queen know each other. I think whoever created the King's character also created the Queen's character, or if it was two different Lightners they knew each other and the character the other created. If the person who made the King deems that the character should have knowledge of the Queen, then that is now part of the King's backstory.

As for Seam, I think he gained some otherworldly knowledge from talking with Jevil, and that is how he knows of the bosses and shadow crystals.

2. I think perhaps both could be formed from Dess's will, as I heavily suspect she is the Knight. I noticed that in Chapter 1, Clover's interests hint at a connection to Dess. As the trees in her room look like mini undecorated Christmas trees, and there are also baseballs in the room (we know Dess hit Kris with a wiffle bat once, and Noelle comments on Dess being interested in a moon that looks like a baseball). Clover also finds Ralsei cute, and Noelle's recollection of Dess wearing Asriel's jacket hints at the two having been a couple. It being Clover's birthday during chapter 1 may also imply that she was created by the Knight that day at the same time as the fountain. Baseballs also appear somewhat randomly in chapter 2 with the carnival toss game, the moon seen in Noelle's room as mentioned earlier, and Giga Queen throws baseballs as one of her attacks (and a larger one as her final attack).

3. I agree. I think the zombie walk is because someone other than us (Dess) is possessing Kris in those moments. I suspect Dess also possessed Noelle to make the first two fountains and in some way encouraged Noelle to make attempts to get Susie to go into both the supply closet and the computer lab. As in chapter 1, Noelle is the one that suggests getting chalk from the supply closet, even though she has chalk to give Susie in a lunchbox the next day.

4. Ralsei I think definitely has some deeper knowledge on the functionality of SOULs and the world beyond the other Lightners and Darkners. I suspect he is a creation of higher beings meant to keep the true nature of the world a secret from the Lightners and Darkners. Ralsei is like an AI made to run the world that wants to be able to appreciate it more and make friends, but their lack of social skills gets them into trouble.

5. I suspect the prophecy is based on a game Asriel made up for Kris, Dess, and Noelle when they were younger. With Kris being the human, Dess being the original monster, Asriel being the original Ralsei, and Noelle being the Angel. Whatever entity the current Ralsei is, they are using this game and Asriel's character as a guise in order to get Kris's help and at the same time keep them and Susie from knowing the full truth about their world. The Knight (Dess) is also familiar with this game and its story.

[Aegis270]

Originally posted by (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

5. I suspect the prophecy is based on a game Asriel made up for Kris, Dess, and Noelle when they were younger. With Kris being the human, Dess being the original monster, Asriel being the original Ralsei, and Noelle being the Angel. Whatever entity the current Ralsei is, they are using this game and Asriel's character as a guise in order to get Kris's help and at the same time keep them and Susie from knowing the full truth about their world. The Knight (Dess) is also familiar with this game and its story.

Not sure this theory holds. Maybe Kris doesn't call out the repeat of the story because we're in control, but wouldn't Noelle? She doesn't even blink twice when introduced to Ralsei, so obviously it's not like she recognizes him from somewhere. She also had literally no idea about the Roaring, something that seems pretty fundamental to the story being told here.

[Aperture Sci-Jens]

I think Ralsei is able to travel between dark worlds because he's the prince of the dark. Not specifically the prince of the card dark world. As fr as we know Lancer is the only Prince from this world. Ralsei also isn't the son kf one if the card kings and doesn't represent any card type.

[kanna]

^^^ This reminds me of something I forgot to say about OP's point #2. It's harder to see how Kris might have created the dark fountain for chapter 1's cards and chess world, but Kris *is* into games, and there's no reason to assume that would be limited to video games only (and just trust me it would suck for most players if they tried to mould the dark world characters after any combination of video game characters). Other than that, Kris' interests are kind of vague because they're supposed to be generic enough for most players to at least someone associate with. It's hard to find a smoking gun when it comes to identifying a world of their creation. But I suppose we'll see if that's really true in chapter 3? The resulting dark world (assuming it's not just the disaster Ralsei warned about starting, lol) is probably going to be based on our choices from chapters 1-2 though I imagine.

[zhankazest]

Originally posted by kanna:

^^^ This reminds me of something I forgot to say about OP's point #2. It's harder to see how Kris might have created the dark fountain for chapter 1's cards and chess world, but Kris *is* into games, and there's no reason to assume that would be limited to video games only (and just trust me it would suck for most players if they tried to mould the dark world characters after any combination of video game characters). Other than that, Kris' interests are kind of vague because they're supposed to be generic enough for most players to at least someone associate with. It's hard to find a smoking gun when it comes to identifying a world of their creation. But I suppose we'll see if that's really true in chapter 3? The resulting dark world (assuming it's not just the disaster Ralsei warned about starting, lol) is probably going to be based on our choices from chapters 1-2 though I imagine.

But didnt chapter 1 really hammer in that "Your choices don't matter"? I mean, its definitely possible that was a lie, but for now we should assume it wasnt one

[kanna]

I think chapter 1 was about lulling us into believing these are the terms we're playing on, but I don't think it's really true.

[zhankazest]

Originally posted by kanna:

I think chapter 1 was about lulling us into believing these are the terms we're playing on, but I don't think it's really true.

Personally, i think its true, but the choices of others however DO (this matches up with the whole Snowgrave thing)

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

Originally posted by Aegis270:

Originally posted by (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

5. I suspect the prophecy is based on a game Asriel made up for Kris, Dess, and Noelle when they were younger. With Kris being the human, Dess being the original monster, Asriel being the original Ralsei, and Noelle being the Angel. Whatever entity the current Ralsei is, they are using this game and Asriel's character as a guise in order to get Kris's help and at the same time keep them and Susie from knowing the full truth about their world. The Knight (Dess) is also familiar with this game and its story.

Not sure this theory holds. Maybe Kris doesn't call out the repeat of the story because we're in control, but wouldn't Noelle? She doesn't even blink twice when introduced to Ralsei, so obviously it's not like she recognizes him from somewhere. She also had literally no idea about the Roaring, something that seems pretty fundamental to the story being told here.

Noelle was probably only brought into the game once, since she essentially played the final boss. That session is what I suspect lead to Dess’s disappearance, and Noelle blanked out the memory of it, like we see her do with other things she does in Snowgrave. I also think this event happened in the bunker and is why Kris is terrified of it. This is all just me speculating of course. Trying to connect what story threads we know.

[Sammun Mak]

3. The zombie walk isn't "caused" by removing the soul, the zombie walk is Kris struggling against us, his puppetmaster. He's zombie walking because he's moving on his own will instead of that of the soul.

[kanna]

Originally posted by zhankazest:

Originally posted by kanna:

I think chapter 1 was about lulling us into believing these are the terms we're playing on, but I don't think it's really true.

Personally, i think its true, but the choices of others however DO (this matches up with the whole Snowgrave thing)

I think we have to define who we're talking about (player is who the choices don't matter statement is said to, but does this also apply to Kris?), and also define what choices that "matter" even are.

For example, right now I think everyone is focused on the fact that the player can choose to be a good influence on Kris or a bad influence on Kris just like with Frisk in Undertale... and Kris will still rip the soul out either way. So far that looks like our choices don't matter, but there are some other layers to this yet.

First, a point some might blow off but it does matter to a lot of players' experience of the game and that's what we're playing the game for in the first place.

Second, within the game though, there is clearly, definitely an outside influence involved in Kris' ...extracurricular activities. I don't think Kris grew up with the soul they have now. We just got "put there" for chapter 1, when Kris was already a teenager.

Noelle and Toriel know Kris well and Noelle comments on how they've changed lately (meaning our arrival as the "soul" probably), while Toriel says "they do that sometimes" (which could be taken to imply we might not be the first soul to visit Kris), seeing as we've apparently only been around for one day and mostly while Toriel wasn't watching.

But whoever owns that cheshire grin in the TV sure is watching. If Kris is acting on their own when the heart is out, then why specifically turn on the TV for the mystery character to appear in, right before creating the dark fountain?

All of this is to say that I don't think we're the *only* ones trying to influence Kris' actions. And there could be only one other influence, or there could be many. We'll see in the future which choices matter.

I will say unlike with Frisk in Undertale, we probably don't "naturally" belong with Kris. But there are questions about what a soul's "purpose" is in the game's world. I suspect we're going to learn something about it being something to do with steering decisions and moderating other outside influences.

(*edited to move a sentence and fix broken italics)

[zhankazest]

Originally posted by kanna:

Originally posted by zhankazest:

Personally, i think its true, but the choices of others however DO (this matches up with the whole Snowgrave thing)

I think we have to define who we're talking about (player is who the choices don't matter statement is said to, but does this also apply to Kris?), and also define what choices that "matter" even are.

For example, right now I think everyone is focused on the fact that the player can choose to be a good influence on Kris or a bad influence on Kris just like with Frisk in Undertale... and Kris will still rip the soul out either way. So far that looks like [i[our[/i] choices don't matter, but there are some other layers to this yet.

First, a point some might blow off but it does matter to a lot of players' experience of the game and that's what we're playing the game for in the first place.

Second, within the game though, there is clearly, definitely an outside influence involved in Kris' ...extracurricular activities. I don't think Kris grew up with the soul they have now. We just got "put there" for chapter 1, when Kris was already a teenager.

Noelle and Toriel know Kris well and Noelle comments on how they've changed lately (meaning our arrival as the "soul" probably), while Toriel says "they do that sometimes" (which could be taken to imply we might not be the first soul to visit Kris), seeing as we've apparently only been around for one day and mostly while Toriel wasn't watching. We'll see in the future which choices matter.

But whoever owns that cheshire grin in the TV sure is watching. If Kris is acting on their own when the heart is out, then why specifically turn on the TV for the mystery character to appear in, right before creating the dark fountain?

All of this is to say that I don't think we're the *only* ones trying to influence Kris' actions. And there could be only one other influence, or there could be many.

I will say unlike with Frisk in Undertale, we probably don't "naturally" belong with Kris. But there are questions about what a soul's "purpose" is in the game's world. I suspect we're going to learn something about it being something to do with steering decisions and moderating other outside influences.

completely agree