Why are Mythic units so lame?

[PastLow]

Generally speaking, referring to something as "Mythic" should mean that it's awesome or powerful. Ironically, in this game having the Mythic unit type is purely a detriment, because they don't scale at all with unit enchantments. None of the cultural passives even apply to them.

Just imagine if there was a culture where all of their cultural units were Tier 1-3 mythic units, it would be hot garbage. Why are there no enchantments specific to mythic units?

[Eldrin]

I find most Mythic very powerful with a few exceptions.

[se05239]

I only care for 'em if they have a gimmick that fits with my army.

[TirAsleen]

There is knightly orders for myhtic units in the order tree.

Other than that there is not much, Mythic units should just get a proper unit type tag like shock, battlemage, support. Fighter, so they can be targeted for enchantments.

Mythic unit type only means they have control loss immunity and are fearless. it should better reworked into a passive ability.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by TirAsleen:

There is knightly orders for myhtic units in the order tree.

Other than that there is not much, Mythic units should just get a proper unit type tag like shock, battlemage, support. Fighter, so they can be targeted for enchantments.

Mythic unit type only means they have control loss immunity and are fearless. it should better reworked into a passive ability.

They also get the mythic boost at a high enough rank, which is one of the better capstones for units.

Basically, Mythic units are less reliable on enchantments, meaning they are far less vulnerable to things like Disruption.

And they are still affected by enchantments and effects that targets their "race", like Elemental, Undead or Magic Origin.

[Midas]

Mythics are supposed to be units that transcend the individual roles, but since they started using it as a way to nerf units like the primal spirit and the ironclad, it has become clear that it really is just a way to make units weaker.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by PastLow:

Generally speaking, referring to something as "Mythic" should mean that it's awesome or powerful. Ironically, in this game having the Mythic unit type is purely a detriment, because they don't scale at all with unit enchantments. None of the cultural passives even apply to them.

Just imagine if there was a culture where all of their cultural units were Tier 1-3 mythic units, it would be hot garbage. Why are there no enchantments specific to mythic units?

History lession: In age of wonders 3 people complained about tier 4 spamm.
Since then truimp studio's seems to fear make strong tier 4/mystic units.

[Midas]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

Originally posted by PastLow:

Generally speaking, referring to something as "Mythic" should mean that it's awesome or powerful. Ironically, in this game having the Mythic unit type is purely a detriment, because they don't scale at all with unit enchantments. None of the cultural passives even apply to them.

Just imagine if there was a culture where all of their cultural units were Tier 1-3 mythic units, it would be hot garbage. Why are there no enchantments specific to mythic units?

History lession: In age of wonders 3 people complained about tier 4 spamm.
Since then truimp studio's seems to fear make strong tier 4/mystic units.

And it's true, T4 spam in AoW3 was terrible. They struck an excellent balance with T4s in Planetfall, and clearly Mythics are *supposed* to be like planetfall's T4s, but the effort behind some of them feels considerably less.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Midas:

Mythics are supposed to be units that transcend the individual roles, but since they started using it as a way to nerf units like the primal spirit and the ironclad, it has become clear that it really is just a way to make units weaker.

Rather than "nerfing" I think it is more in line of avoiding power creep, as well as increasing army variety.
It keeps games from devolving into "always get to tier 4 and 5 units as fast as possible, then only use those units".
Primal Spirits are tier 2 and have no upkeep(as they are all combat summons), so if they also had the full benefit of various enchantments, they would become quite oppressive.

As I see it, depending on when and where they are used/encountered, most mythics are fairly powerful, but often specialized.

[Midas]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Originally posted by Midas:

Mythics are supposed to be units that transcend the individual roles, but since they started using it as a way to nerf units like the primal spirit and the ironclad, it has become clear that it really is just a way to make units weaker.

Rather than "nerfing" I think it is more in line of avoiding power creep, as well as increasing army variety.
It keeps games from devolving into "always get to tier 4 and 5 units as fast as possible, then only use those units".
Primal Spirits are tier 2 and have no upkeep(as they are all combat summons), so if they also had the full benefit of various enchantments, they would become quite oppressive.

As I see it, depending on when and where they are used/encountered, most mythics are fairly powerful, but often specialized.

The problem is that the units aren't 'mythic' by role, just by tag. An effort wasn't even made to make them fit the mythic tag. It would be one thing if every unit with the mythic type was actually designed to be a multi-role unit, but the devs have proven that in some cases they just use the role to restrict things, rather than have it actually fit the role itself.

[Balekai]

For me I tend to ignore Mythic and see it as a waste of Imperium most of the time. Hell I just finished a Hard Sehiran Oasis with this Mighty Meek build I made a few days ago:

Fey Chosen Uniters Silver Tongued Reaver Elves:
https://minionsart.github.io/aow4db/HTML/FactionCreator.html?u=20:47:48,f,e,5a,58,4f,78,85:bc:e2:92:91:a4:a2:a7:a8:a5:87,000000

Throughout the whole game my stacks were two to three T1 Harriers (considered the second worst Reaver unit if not the worst) with maybe a Mistling instead of the an extra harrier, two Overseers and a support leader or extra Overseer if a leader is not available. By endgame they were near doomstack material only ever losing one Harrier on auto resolve per late Seal spawn attack. Their biggest issue was Edwards Dreadnought stacks.

Actually I forgot to test my mid/late game Harrier "Doomstacks..ish" once I had Keepers Mark and Amplified Arrows against them, since I just had my allies/endless use of Blessed Reinforcements keep him to his Throne City only. Not to mention the nutty + Clinging Mists x3 + 50% evasion chance of legendary ranked harriers from Knightly Order affinity trait. I might test that out now real quick lol. ;p

Anyways I would lose no harriers to seals if I played the actual battle (well on auto i'm not buffing that much manually lol) and making up for the AI not healing that one harrier when it should have with a spell or support heal. The best part is that each harrier at endgame only had an upkeep of 10 Gold, 8 Mana and were easily replaced (Overseer's had 10 gold, 8 mana upkeep lol). I also could have field another 6 armies easily with my 600+ gold and mana per turn to the already 8ish armies I had.

In most game sessions I only ever build up to Tier 3 units and if I go higher, it's probably because my build has failed and I need T4 Mythics to Doomstack/carry me to victory (like a few similar Reaver builds to the above but Order/Materium with the wrong racial traits).

That said i like it how it is right now. I like the fact that with some knowhow, correct faction choices and tome selection you can make a Mighty Meek T1 (near) doomstack that easily fells most enemy AI mythic stacks and armies. Or some other gimmicky combination to overwhelm the most powerful units in the game.

[Midas]

... who considers harriers one of the worst reaver units? They're usually considered one of the best reaver units. They get a ton of work done for a T1 skirmisher.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by Midas:

... who considers harriers one of the worst reaver units? They're usually considered one of the best reaver units. They get a ton of work done for a T1 skirmisher.

I like to know that too.
Harrier overseer combo is godtier.

[TirAsleen]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Originally posted by TirAsleen:

There is knightly orders for myhtic units in the order tree.

Other than that there is not much, Mythic units should just get a proper unit type tag like shock, battlemage, support. Fighter, so they can be targeted for enchantments.

Mythic unit type only means they have control loss immunity and are fearless. it should better reworked into a passive ability.

They also get the mythic boost at a high enough rank, which is one of the better capstones for units.

Basically, Mythic units are less reliable on enchantments, meaning they are far less vulnerable to things like Disruption.

And they are still affected by enchantments and effects that targets their "race", like Elemental, Undead or Magic Origin.

Yeah, true its good you mentioned this, its easy to overlook this piece of detail.

Yet they cost really a lot more than T4 units basicly double the cost, so early in the game if you get a T5 it really snowballs, but later with multiple enchanted T4 stacks of units T5 start to matter less for the cost implied.

At least there could be a T5 Tome, or expensive Imperium tree skill that unlocks enchantments for them, cause units are more exciting and tactical with unit enchantments.

For instance someone is a necromancer and needs corpses - You have a stack of T5 Dragons and would like to use the unit enchantment Flameburst Weapons to destroy their corpses on a kill.

But you can't because of the mythic tag, some T4 units have this too, like the 3 Giants, Mage Bane and Bone Dragon.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by Midas:

... who considers harriers one of the worst reaver units? They're usually considered one of the best reaver units. They get a ton of work done for a T1 skirmisher.

A lot of people did near ashes release I was never one of them. The main complaint was that they were too squishy for mid/late game and I struggled myself with them the first 1-2 days to figure them out (along with the rest of the Faction).

However, it was easily fixed once I took the right racial traits and the right tomes so they don't get those unlucky deaths early on because of that 55ish starting HP. I find Hardy for +8 health and Tough for +2 Defence (27% base physical damage reduction as opposed to 10%) does the trick and why I never lost significant or really any Harriers through the session. Probably about 6-7 I could have prevented by not being lazy. Now with the tome of Mists they're even better! (Stacking evasion for a lot more effective health) :) :)

In the beginning people thought in order the following sucked because:
1. Magelock for reasons still debated today (Mark ability mechanic).
2. Harriers because they were "Squishy" (Ignoring their synergy with overseers).
3. Overseer for its touch heal (ignoring their 60% base chance to blind on hit, synergy with Harriers, "Patch Up" healing 40 hp. Because they're already in touch range, they benefit a lot of Staves of the "X" like enchantment abilities).

[Pantagruel]

The problem with mythics is that mythic is the tag for "not affected by beneficial enchantments" and beneficial enchantments are really powerful, particularly by the time you might actually be getting mythics.