AI sucks

[RAmieL]

I know this was already mentioned a number of times, but honestly, why do most of modern day turn based strategies implement such anti player AI?

AI is not a human player, and it need buffs and cheats to be competitive, I get that, but why does it have to be so obvious? Few examples from the game I played this morning:

- I was besieging a free city with only 2 enemy units in it. During 5 turn siege AI somehow produced additional 3 x 6 stacks of units to defend the city, I mean, how do you do that?

- AI allies completely ignore enemy armies marching through their lands. despite the alliance. My ally had 6x6 blob parked in the city and it did NOTHING while enemy weaker army headed right through for my city

- passive allies, I was besieging enemy capital and he pulled all his forces back to defend it, leaving other cities undefended. My ally once again decided to do nothing but sit and watch me struggle. It also made a completely reasonable decision to pillage enemy AI provinces despite enemy nearby city being empty

- allies in general being just a nuisance more than a real help. All they do is build cities and steal the provinces in your domain's vicinity. They almost never attack the enemy that's not their neighbour

This is really painful to watch, s it really that hard to create AI that would at least pretend it plays the same game as I am?

[Gaslov]

The AI does not create armies out of thin air. Due to their incredible income bonus, they field a lot more armies than the player can and will move them in from outside vision. They also can buy stacks from the rally of lieges, just like the player.

[Blanch Warren]

The AI has improved substantially. The main thing it lacks is a complete consolidation of forces. Yaka is perfectly capable now of marching on my cities. But he seems to leave behind some of his more powerful units, and does not of course attack with a full 3 stacks.

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by RAmieL:

During 5 turn siege AI somehow produced additional 3 x 6 stacks of units to defend the city, I mean, how do you do that?

The Player can do the same thing. It's actually a pretty accurate way to simulate a human opponent's behavior.

AI allies completely ignore enemy armies marching through their lands. despite the alliance. My ally had 6x6 blob parked in the city and it did NOTHING while enemy weaker army headed right through for my city

- passive allies, I was besieging enemy capital and he pulled all his forces back to defend it, leaving other cities undefended. My ally once again decided to do nothing but sit and watch me struggle. It also made a completely reasonable decision to pillage enemy AI provinces despite enemy nearby city being empty

- allies in general being just a nuisance more than a real help. All they do is build cities and steal the provinces in your domain's vicinity. They almost never attack the enemy that's not their neighbour

All these issues could be mitigated by engaging in War Coordination with your AI Allies.

[Etherlight]

Good way to motivate the developer to support the game by outright insulting them.

[Dizzy Ioeuy]

Originally posted by Etherlight:

Good way to motivate the developer to support the game by outright insulting them.

Nobody insulted them. The ai is pretty poor in this game, it's a valid point.

[Imperium]

AI cheats... but its also an issue of your build, this has a lot of RPG elements that allow you to build some straight up overpowered doomstacks. Play on easy, learn the game, I am experienced but toughest AIs often cheap shot me so hard I have to save scum.

Fun fact, in advanced options for your map you can actually remove combat bonuses AI gets, setting it to no bonus should make things feel better, but u can also nerf them.

We did get pretty noticable upgrades to how AI behaves, they actively stay out of your magic and missile range, they prioritize targets to snipe them, and use magic smarter... heck just recently I lost my doomstack when ai used infectious insanity on my level 20 dragon hero (who foolishly did not have control loss immunity not a mistake I will ever repeat) and my own dragon nuked my own doomstack, causing more to be infected. Thats pretty solid play from AI that has access to dozens of spells but it picked a killer.

We got absolutely beautiful update with ability to control vassals/allies, I love it. But there are many issues, this game will not reach its peak until we got the rest of expansions, and it will not disappoint. Give it time.

[TriumphJordi]

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

Originally posted by RAmieL:

During 5 turn siege AI somehow produced additional 3 x 6 stacks of units to defend the city, I mean, how do you do that?

The Player can do the same thing. It's actually a pretty accurate way to simulate a human opponent's behavior.

While a Player can still produce units during a Siege they are right that Free Cities, which are independent AI, spawn their units. However in this case what we're looking at is a situation of wrong place, wrong time. The Free City basically spawned a War Party to go attack the player or another Ruler, which is a bit of a feel bad moment.

For the rest the AI is actually in a pretty good state after the improvements in Watcher & Golem.

[aclyte]

Originally posted by TriumphJordi:

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

The Player can do the same thing. It's actually a pretty accurate way to simulate a human opponent's behavior.

While a Player can still produce units during a Siege they are right that Free Cities, which are independent AI, spawn their units. However in this case what we're looking at is a situation of wrong place, wrong time. The Free City basically spawned a War Party to go attack the player or another Ruler, which is a bit of a feel bad moment.

For the rest the AI is actually in a pretty good state after the improvements in Watcher & Golem.

Still, i really wish you update combat AI hero behaviour with blink - i think it's the only major problem AI have in battles now.

Yesterday, enemy leader with blink and frost wolf mount made suicide blink in middle of my army at 1st turn (it was siege) and use wolf howl. And i kill him without any problems next turn.

I want to say that AI should use blink VERY carefully and, in most cases, they should not use it because in most cases AI can't calculate it's effectivness.
Or, at least, add AI check before using a blink - there should be a friendly unit 1-3 tiles away from blink target cell. In that case AI at least would not make 100% suicidal blinks.

Also, i want to point bad AI archers behaviour (especially ranged heroes) - very often they run all the way to the enemy to make ONE shoot (out of 3) from max distance (and dies next turn). AI arhcers should stick to their infantry shield and try to attack at least 2 times out of 3.

[Imperium]

Originally posted by aclyte:

Still, i really wish you update combat AI hero behaviour with blink - i think it's the only major problem AI have in battles now.

Yesterday, enemy leader with blink and frost wolf mount made suicide blink in middle of my army at 1st turn (it was siege) and use wolf howl. And i kill him without any problems next turn.

Interesting note, I also encountered it a bunch of times, sometimes enemy hero teleport way ahead of its army just to make a hit, to be obliterated next turn and giving rest of the army hefty hero dead morale hit as well. They do prioritize support skills if they have them though. Maybe it just needs a tag not to use that skill first 2 turns as a quick solution if it , allowing rest of army make the push.

[TirAsleen]

Originally posted by RAmieL:

- I was besieging a free city with only 2 enemy units in it. During 5 turn siege AI somehow produced additional 3 x 6 stacks of units to defend the city, I mean, how do you do that?

Check out the draft system and the imperium skill system that summons stack of units into your capitol, exactly what rally of the lieges can do, too, especially if you have plenty of vassals and some order imperium skills.

If players can do this, why should the A.I. with huge discounts on units not be able to do it? The best part of the draft system in AoW4 is, it allows the A.I. to produce more units than a turn would allow them to do in the previous games.

Sadly it can not really take advantage of that as much as it should due to the 3x3 fixed stack rules. it should be lifted for A.I.s to create a more proper challenge and the A.I. units should be of much higher quality, too.

Originally posted by RAmieL:

- AI allies completely ignore enemy armies marching through their lands. despite the alliance. My ally had 6x6 blob parked in the city and it did NOTHING while enemy weaker army headed right through for my city

Why should the A.I. win the game for you? Thats your job. I am sure, if A.I.s would win games for other players beating other A.I.s that game would be flamed for it. And rightfully so.

Besides, you can command your allies to guard your cities.

Originally posted by RAmieL:

- passive allies, I was besieging enemy capital and he pulled all his forces back to defend it, leaving other cities undefended. My ally once again decided to do nothing but sit and watch me struggle. It also made a completely reasonable decision to pillage enemy AI provinces despite enemy nearby city being empty

A script cannot think. You're always on your own no matter what. Allies are more like a puffer zone between you and the enemy.

Originally posted by RAmieL:

- allies in general being just a nuisance more than a real help. All they do is build cities and steal the provinces in your domain's vicinity. They almost never attack the enemy that's not their neighbour

The solution is simple. Don't keep the peace with your neighbors and raze/loot their cities. The options for that are not just for show in a war game use them frequently.

Originally posted by RAmieL:

This is really painful to watch, s it really that hard to create AI that would at least pretend it plays the same game as I am?

No, it has to play a different game than the player, it uses different rules to give the illusion of a challenge.

[SQW]

I'll dog pile on the AI any chance I get but I will admit the AI seems to initiate combat a bit more aggressively than before (on brutal) with stacks that actually has a chance of winning. I had to adapt my old strategy a bit for the first time since v1.3 after being ambushed twice by overwhelming forces.

However, the AI still seem super reluctant to siege YOUR city (they do fine killing each other). That same AI army that destroy my army just wandered around my territory right next to my undefended city for 5 turns and sort of just left. Yes I had another army shadowing it just outside its engagement zone but it was way under strength and would have posed zero threat in the 4 turns it would've taken the AI to breach my city defense rating.

[⎝Wyrd Deofol⎠]

After 400 hours i must say i'm quite impressed with the AI thus far. Especially since the latest patches.

[RobAlca]

op u are right that ai suck but u only manage to see the bad sides that affect u badly,like allies sucking bad

in reality the ai is so bad it does not prove to be challenging at all,thats the problem

[SQW]

Originally posted by ⎝Apostate⎠:

After 400 hours i must say i'm quite impressed with the AI thus far. Especially since the latest patches.

It's dumb. Super dumb. However, with so much free resources, it can pose as an illusion of a threat if you don't look too closely. It simply has no overarching strategy, cannot respond intelligently as part of an alliance, almost zero attempt at achieving a win condition and serve mostly as a glorified re-spawning road block to keep you busy/distracted while you ALONE go for the win.

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by SQW:

almost zero attempt at achieving a win condition and serve mostly as a glorified re-spawning road block to keep you busy/distracted while you ALONE go for the win.

Certainly not true, as AI consistently aims for a Magic, Seal or Domination victory if given enough time and wherewithal.

The difficulty level the AI is set to makes a difference on when it "decides" to put pressure on the player to stop the AI's chosen victory path.