Over/Under powered units

[sinobas]

List a few units you think under perform for what tier they are, and conversely, which you think are a bargain for their tier. And argue and tell me why I"m wrong.

The bad:
Bastions T3- I used them as my infantry while playing as a Dwarf, and got very annoyed with them. They have high defense, but barely do any damage.

Fire Elementals: they have no melee and their ranged damage is mediocre. My least favorite elemental

Mimics: They are like a tier 4 or 5 unit, can't remember which, but a high tier spell, but they suck on their own, and mimic lower tier units with modest bonuses. I don't understand the point, unless you can get them up to a really powerful unit, but they mimic with a deficiet. I'd rather just summon another high tier unit.

Bargains:
Astral Serpents T3 - One of my favorite things to summon. They can phase and do group damage, then become immune for a round, then flank those units on the next turn with high damage.

Arcanists T1 - I researched lightening evoker and realized these guys were doing more damage. They pack a punch.

Sunderer T1: It does as much melee damage as regular sword shield units, plus a javalin throw that is only 4 less than an arbalest, can slip away without retaliation, plus has a plus 8 primal strike on the first blow.

[Fendelphi]

Just want to start out saying that Bastions are awesome with a Cavalry trait(there are a few that provides damage bonuses, either directly or when grouped up).
Very durable cavalry and shielded unit, which means lot of possible enhancements to benefit from.
This makes them go from a slow, defensive and low damage unit, to a very fast, defensive and decent damage one.
And with an enchantment focus(Runesmiths) you can buff them up quite a bit,. Unlike most cavalry, they excel in brawls(they do not rely on charges) and even have additional retaliations.
I made them Wightborn at one point(gains life steal) and they became unkillable.


As for "very strong"(I dont think "OP" is the right word):
Phantasm Warrior: A Shield unit that can be summoned when and where they are needed, have 2 damage channels from the start, several condition immunities, benefits from all your racial transformations and is also a tier 1 unit(synergizes with Mighty Meek and similar tier 1 unit effects).

And in a different, but similar way, Skeletons: Cheap unit that uses a different resources to recruit than gold. This time it is a tier 1 Polearm unit, immune to some conditions and can benefit from all your racial transformations.

[darkholyPL]

Most T5 units are underpowered by virtue of not getting enchancements/race buffs.
They count as their own type of unit (mythic) which hurts them in the late game.
I honestly don't think most of them are worth their upkeep cost.
I usually just build like one or two 'for fun' and not bother otherwise.

[sinobas]

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

Most T5 units are underpowered by virtue of not getting enchancements/race buffs.
They count as their own type of unit (mythic) which hurts them in the late game.
I honestly don't think most of them are worth their upkeep cost.
I usually just build like one or two 'for fun' and not bother otherwise.

I think AOW3 was all about those high tier units. I'd summon a stack of horned Gods and clean up the map, but AOW4 is more about buffed units.

[sinobas]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Just want to start out saying that Bastions are awesome with a Cavalry trait(there are a few that provides damage bonuses, either directly or when grouped up).
Very durable cavalry and shielded unit, which means lot of possible enhancements to benefit from.
This makes them go from a slow, defensive and low damage unit, to a very fast, defensive and decent damage one.
.

Interesting, I never noticed that calvary trait. I may try them again at some point, but they start from the same low attack base as cheaper units. I feel like they are just there to absorb damage.

[Central]

Originally posted by sinobas:

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Just want to start out saying that Bastions are awesome with a Cavalry trait(there are a few that provides damage bonuses, either directly or when grouped up).
Very durable cavalry and shielded unit, which means lot of possible enhancements to benefit from.
This makes them go from a slow, defensive and low damage unit, to a very fast, defensive and decent damage one.
.

Interesting, I never noticed that calvary trait. I may try them again at some point, but they start from the same low attack base as cheaper units. I feel like they are just there to absorb damage.

the cavalry options come with the racial traits, so right at the beginning when you create your faction. each mount has its own unique strengths.

the current options are:
Dread Spider mounts, nightmare mounts, Unicorn mounts, White Wolf mounts, Dire Bear mounts (empire and ashes dlc)

picking these mount options changes the mounts of all units to that specific mount. it also changes some units into cavalry units. units that become cavalry:
Reaver: Overseer
Industrious: Bastion, Arbalest
high: Awakener, Dawn Defender
Dark: Persuer
Mystic: Spellshield
Barbarian: Fury, Warior
Feudal: Defender

Shadow: White Witch
Nature: Glade Runner

Originally posted by sinobas:

Arcanists T1 - I researched lightening evoker and realized these guys were doing more damage. They pack a punch.

the evoker may not be much of an upgrade on its normal attack, dealing 10 lighting dmg (1 more total than the arcanist) but it does have a special ability "electrifying arc", this deals dmg to the target and 2 other targets in range. it also has a chance to electrify them.

so the evoker does have the potential to do more dmg than the arcanist, you just have to use its special ability.

[Midas]

Originally posted by sinobas:

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

Most T5 units are underpowered by virtue of not getting enchancements/race buffs.
They count as their own type of unit (mythic) which hurts them in the late game.
I honestly don't think most of them are worth their upkeep cost.
I usually just build like one or two 'for fun' and not bother otherwise.

I think AOW3 was all about those high tier units. I'd summon a stack of horned Gods and clean up the map, but AOW4 is more about buffed units.

That's the outcome I'd assume Triumph is trying to avoid. There was nothing fun about endless stacks of T4s with nothing else. Planetfall did a way better job balancing this, but AoW4 needs to bring up its mythic units a little bit. I don't think they need higher stats, but they should have more utility, like buffs to the stack they are in, force multipliers.

[TirAsleen]

Most games are just finished and decided before i could get into anything high tier i am not a slow player and idling on turns, so if you are agressive you will never really find an use to fit that T5 unit into your army - Dragons with evolve units excluded, thats an odd exception.

I play games with huge maps 7 A.I.s as teams vs me and i want a reasion to pay up for a T5 unit and not another hero or more T4 units.

For this not only the enchantment limits to T5 units needs to be lifted, but also they need their raw stats increased.

And no its not boring, if T5s are gated behind Tier 5 Tomes and therefore removed from Tome 4 + made more models for T5 for diversity.

I still looking for ways to get that T5 Karagh.

The Reaper could get a new model or at least head, it looks like a common shade, not like the incarnation of Death, Corrupt Soul looks so much better.

Usually the artist did a good job here, but here they dropped the ball.

I bet, a good model can make it more likely to build something expensive, too.

[revjwh]

I love Bastions. I put 1 or 2 skalds with 4 or 5 bastions - enchant with Artisan weapons and bloodfury weapons and watch them clean up. Add in Draconic race for beserk at 60% hitpoints etc. and they outlast every other unit.

[Central]

Originally posted by revjwh:

I love Bastions. I put 1 or 2 skalds with 4 or 5 bastions - enchant with Artisan weapons and bloodfury weapons and watch them clean up. Add in Draconic race for beserk at 60% hitpoints etc. and they outlast every other unit.

sorry for being that guy...
its worth noting that it is called "draconic rage", not beserk.
draconic rage gives units under 60% health 30% extra dmg
beserk ignores casualties when calculating dmg (and makes them uncontrollable)

[SomeGuy1]

Originally posted by Midas:

Originally posted by sinobas:

I think AOW3 was all about those high tier units. I'd summon a stack of horned Gods and clean up the map, but AOW4 is more about buffed units.

That's the outcome I'd assume Triumph is trying to avoid. There was nothing fun about endless stacks of T4s with nothing else. Planetfall did a way better job balancing this, but AoW4 needs to bring up its mythic units a little bit. I don't think they need higher stats, but they should have more utility, like buffs to the stack they are in, force multipliers.

a few do work this way, but yeah more of them should. Reapers give Undead (except other Reapers) +10% damage and +2 Resistance. Horned Gods make Plant and Animal units immune to losing morale (for any reason). And Shrines of Smiting are more powerful based on how many Faithful units are in the battle.

But it looks like just those three. Well, when the game came out that was a solid half of them. But then Ironclads, Severing Golems, and Dragons got added. The first two at least serve specialized roles.

[Midas]

Originally posted by SomeGuy1:

Originally posted by Midas:

That's the outcome I'd assume Triumph is trying to avoid. There was nothing fun about endless stacks of T4s with nothing else. Planetfall did a way better job balancing this, but AoW4 needs to bring up its mythic units a little bit. I don't think they need higher stats, but they should have more utility, like buffs to the stack they are in, force multipliers.

a few do work this way, but yeah more of them should. Reapers give Undead (except other Reapers) +10% damage and +2 Resistance. Horned Gods make Plant and Animal units immune to losing morale (for any reason). And Shrines of Smiting are more powerful based on how many Faithful units are in the battle.

But it looks like just those three. Well, when the game came out that was a solid half of them. But then Ironclads, Severing Golems, and Dragons got added. The first two at least serve specialized roles.

The ironclads bug me because from the onset, players were suspicious that the Mythic role was just a way to nerf units and limit their power, and the Ironclad is so clearly a ranged unit that they 'nerfed' by making it a Mythic unit, which pretty much validates that suspicion. It has no mythic characteristics. It is not a complex multi-role unit like most other mythics are, it's just a big gun. The Ironclad shouldn't even count as a mythic unit.

Ironclad rant aside, yes, I wish all the Mythics were like Planetfall's T4s. Even the ones that have army-affecting bonuses seem to deliberately lean on being less significant, and I feel that's a mistake.

[aclyte]

Yea, some passive for all non-mythic/non-hero units in stack from Mythic unit would be very nice and useful.
Like - Mythic unit is, well, MYTHIC - it's somewhat wonderous - it should make something for the army it's in.
It would also make infestations/wonders with T5 in it more difficult and it's good.

[MrLuckless]

Originally posted by Midas:

Originally posted by sinobas:

I think AOW3 was all about those high tier units. I'd summon a stack of horned Gods and clean up the map, but AOW4 is more about buffed units.

That's the outcome I'd assume Triumph is trying to avoid. There was nothing fun about endless stacks of T4s with nothing else. Planetfall did a way better job balancing this, but AoW4 needs to bring up its mythic units a little bit. I don't think they need higher stats, but they should have more utility, like buffs to the stack they are in, force multipliers.

AoW4 still has an emphasis on higher tier units but mostly around the T3-4 area in the mid-late game. Planetfall was probably a hard turn in the opposite direction to address AoW3 and late game high tier unit spam both players and AI could engage in. So instead you get armies of T1-2 units with mods that can dumpster higher tier units fairly consistently and for cheaper.

AoW4 could've done with the "Core" unit type from Planetfall as well as the district system it brought along as well. A key factional unit that defines the rest of the units that support it. I wish the cultures acted like this as well, but AoW4 is almost religiously about customization that the cultures don't get those kind of clear cut identities.

[DYNIA]

berserkers with right enchants/heal are power house, this unit is ridiculas and strong as tier 4 units without costing imperium, you can use them vs asrtal T5 tome and counter this "OP" tome lol

[Charlando[SunsOfStmChrts]]

one exception to mythic nerfs ironclad, it gets killing momentum at max rank and its a huge single shot attack