Buff the Magic Dragon (Lords)

[Kerry]

So, I just want to preface this by saying that I bought Age of Wonders 4 exclusively for the Dragon Dawn DLC, and the ability to create Dragon Lords, as dragons are my favorite mythical creatures.

I was severely disappointed, as despite what it says in the lore, Dragon Lords feel pathetic in terms of damage resistance. They are supposed to be among the oldest, wisest and most powerful of the creatures of the various realms, And one of the many creators of all, even the various story realms.

Logically, this means that they would already be significantly tougher and more armored than your average Mortal Champion or Wizard King.

They definitely do not feel this way. In fact, they feel weaker than a properly-equipped vanilla Godir, whether Wizard King or Mortal Champion. And they've always felt this way, both before and after the Tiger Update. (In fact, they feel significantly worse after the Tiger Update.)

Here is my suggestion of a couple of potential solutions to fix this problem:

I propose that starting from Level 1, all Dragon Lords get an immediate 50% to 60% buff to their Evasion, as well as a straight 50% to 60% increase in their damage resistance from all sources, whether direct damage or Damage over Time, physical damage, elemental damage, ranged damage, melee damage, etcetera. This would increase passively over time as the Dragon Lord increases in experience, to something like 90 to 95% at maximum rank.

IMHO this wouldn't be too crazy of an initial buff as it doesn't make the Dragon Lord invincible and able to solo multiple entire armies simultaneously, right from the get-go, which would be very bad. All it would do is make the Dragon Lord feel more survivable. They'd be able to take more hits, yet you'd still be able to defeat them through swarm tactics, and it'd be a proper epic battle to defeat one.

It would also feel more lore-accurate as the slow build-up towards 95% evasion and damage resistance makes it feel like your Sovereign is just waking up from a multi-millennia-long nap. They'd be groggy, and therefore get hit more due to slow reaction times until they are able to shake their gigantic sleepy heads and fully wake up.

Another way to do this would be to give Dragon Lords the ability to find, forge and wear special dragon armor, and to reforge common hero armor into dragon armor with the same properties as the original once the Item Forge in the Wizard Tower is online.

To balance it out, making armor to fit a Dragon Lord would take longer turn-wise than forging other items,

Speaking of forging, I would also like to request that Dragon Lords get the additional Item Forge bonuses that Giants are getting, as these bonuses would synergize well with the Hoard mechanic. Not only that, but as it stands now the Dragon Lords get a lot of their slots blocked but gain little to nothing in return, so the few slots they do have, should do more for them.

Now, I get that balancing this may be an issue in multiplayer, and therefore I propose that these fixes only apply to story mode, single player skirmish, and co-op battles versus the AI.

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EDIT: I'm gonna be honest with you here as well, folks. (Bear with me, this is gonna get confusing.)

When I bought the DLC, I wasn't expecting these dragon lords to be akin to normal, common dragons. I was expecting what I call dragods. Those massive beasts the size of mountains and as powerful as a volcano, like Ancalagon from Lord of the Rings or Tiamat from DnD.

That's what they were built up to be thanks to the trailer video and the in-game lore. Dragon Lords are Dragon Gods. Dragon Godir.

What I got instead left me flabbergasted and saying, "I bought the game and the DLC, spent damn near seventy dollars, for THIS?! NOT WORTH IT!"

I was expecting them to be able to shrug off arrows and minor magic spells like they'd just been tickled. (And I do mean shrug, not merely reduced damage.) The only thing that would be a real threat to them would be cavalry and polearms, and even they would have a tough time getting through their thick scales. Not an impossible time, but a tough time.

I was disappointed. Extremely disappointed.

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Developers, if you're reading this, all I ask is that you give this feedback some serious thought and actually address them. Don't be rude and brush me off like lint off your shirt.

[Midas]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

The devs go over the distinction in the recent video. The dragons come in first and basically blast the realm into existence, effectively filling the world with the raw materials to make the realm, and then the giants come along and refine and perfect it all. Presumably this is why when you do the dragon war scenario the world is in a state of elemental chaos where everything is still rapidly terraforming.

Either way, the dragons aren't the careful deliberate perfectionist crafters the giants are. They didn't build great cities, and artifacts and monuments by their own hands, the giants did.

https://youtu.be/BQAEBzeu9ro?t=400

And...? It makes no difference!

According to how they've treated dragons, logically they shouldn't be giving giants this sort of thing either!

So either they both get it, or nobody gets it!

Did you just ignore everything I said?

One weaves creation into existence from raw elemental force. They aren't careful precise crafters, they're like sentient terraformers.

Then the ACTUAL crafters come along afterwards, the ones who's role is all about crafting and refining, and they refine things.

So yes, it makes sense that the ones who ARE crafters get crafting stuff, and the ones who AREN'T crafters do not. I'm not even sure how this can be hard to understand, it's very simple.

[Kerry]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

And...? It makes no difference!

According to how they've treated dragons, logically they shouldn't be giving giants this sort of thing either!

So either they both get it, or nobody gets it!

Did you just ignore everything I said?

Yes, i did ignore everything you just said, because the developers did too. And I'm going to continue to ignore it until the developers stop ignoring it.

Dragons are giant stompy extremely-hard-to-kill monsters in the lore. In the game, they're weak, pathetic, and easy to kill.

So you don't get to pull that "BuT It'S In ThE LoRe!" excuse until the developers follow it for dragons too.

Either they both get it, or neither of them get it.

[Midas]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

Did you just ignore everything I said?

One weaves creation into existence from raw elemental force. They aren't careful precise crafters, they're like sentient terraformers.

Then the ACTUAL crafters come along afterwards, the ones who's role is all about crafting and refining, and they refine things.

So yes, it makes sense that the ones who ARE crafters get crafting stuff, and the ones who AREN'T crafters do not. I'm not even sure how this can be hard to understand, it's very simple.

Yes, i did ignore everything you just said, because the developers did too.

Dragons are giant stompy monsters in the lore. In the game, they're weak and pathetic.

So you don't get to pull that "BuT It'S In ThE LoRe!" excuse until the developers follow it for dragons too.

No, you're just bad at using them. This whole thread is just one big cope from you.

Your reductive logic is that just because dragons aren't literally cheat codes to win games for you, it means they don't follow the lore. If they don't follow the lore, then they shouldn't have breath attacks or dragon hoards either.

[Kerry]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

Yes, i did ignore everything you just said, because the developers did too.

Dragons are giant stompy monsters in the lore. In the game, they're weak and pathetic.

So you don't get to pull that "BuT It'S In ThE LoRe!" excuse until the developers follow it for dragons too.

No, you're just bad at using them. This whole thread is just one big cope from you.

Your reductive logic is that just because dragons aren't literally cheat codes to win games for you, it means they don't follow the lore. If they don't follow the lore, then they shouldn't have breath attacks or dragon hoards either.

Oh bull corn, I'm not coping at all. I'm not even close to asking for a cheat code to win games, in fact I specifically kept my proposed damage reduction percentages low so that they would feel tougher while at the same time not being stupid powerful.

If I were asking for a cheat code, I'd be asking for a ninety-five percent reduction in incoming damage, not fifty percent!

I mean, it's not that big of an ask not to get steamrolled in the early game when playing as a group of creatures who literally shoved an entire planet together!

[Midas]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

No, you're just bad at using them. This whole thread is just one big cope from you.

Your reductive logic is that just because dragons aren't literally cheat codes to win games for you, it means they don't follow the lore. If they don't follow the lore, then they shouldn't have breath attacks or dragon hoards either.

Oh bull corn, I'm not coping at all. I'm not even close to asking for a cheat code to win games, in fact I specifically kept my proposed damage reduction percentages low so that they would feel tougher while at the same time not being stupid powerful.

I mean, how hard is it to ask not to get steamrolled in the early game, when playing as a group of creatures who literally shoved an entire planet together?

I can't even guess how you'd manage to use a dragon so poorly as to get 'steamrolled'.

[Kerry]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

Oh bull corn, I'm not coping at all. I'm not even close to asking for a cheat code to win games, in fact I specifically kept my proposed damage reduction percentages low so that they would feel tougher while at the same time not being stupid powerful.

I mean, how hard is it to ask not to get steamrolled in the early game, when playing as a group of creatures who literally shoved an entire planet together?

I can't even guess how you'd manage to use a dragon so poorly as to get 'steamrolled'.

How ELSE are you supposed to use a warrior dragon than as a front-line unit, mauling away at enemy troops?

I wasn't being facetious when I said that they can be beaten with a single unit of archers and a single polearm unit. That is literally all it takes.

[Midas]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

I can't even guess how you'd manage to use a dragon so poorly as to get 'steamrolled'.

How ELSE are you supposed to use a warrior dragon than as a front-line unit, mauling away at enemy troops?

I wasn't being facetious when I said that they can be beaten with a single unit of archers and a single polearm unit. That is literally all it takes.

If between your tail attack, charge attack and breath attack you're not able to steamroll whole stacks of T1s, I don't know what to tell you. My dragons, even at the lowest level, they just fly up to a group of enemies, blast them all for half their health, and whatever survives the rest of my units then all get killed by a tail attack. I'm not even sure how it's possible to not be utterly annihilating things as a dragon.

[Repairman Mack]

Some people don't know how to train their dragons.

[Kerry]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

How ELSE are you supposed to use a warrior dragon than as a front-line unit, mauling away at enemy troops?

I wasn't being facetious when I said that they can be beaten with a single unit of archers and a single polearm unit. That is literally all it takes.

If between your tail attack, charge attack and breath attack you're not able to steamroll whole stacks of T1s, I don't know what to tell you. My dragons, even at the lowest level, they just fly up to a group of enemies, blast them all for half their health, and whatever survives the rest of my units then all get killed by a tail attack. I'm not even sure how it's possible to not be utterly annihilating things as a dragon.

Yeah? And when I'm doing the same, I get massacred before I even reach the battle line.

You say it's impossible to not be utterly annihilating things as a dragon? Well, I'm calling BS on that, because when I do it, I get nailed from halfway across the tactical map.

Allow me to walk you through how it happens, and hey, I'll even put the encounter in favor of my unit and allow myself to move first, just to make it even more apparent.

Here's how the process usually goes for me:
Turn one, my move: Dragon attempts to fly close to enemy units.
Turn one, enemy move: Enemy units move in, and the polearm units instantly attack. BAM! I'm down to three quarters health.

Turn two, my move: Dragon claw takes out a couple of their polearms. What's left of the unit retaliates, slicing another sixth of my health away.
Turn two, enemy move: Hostiles attack, slicing away another third of my health. I'm now down to two-sixths of my starting health and it's not even turn three.

Turn three, my move: Dragon breath takes out the polearms.
Turn three, enemy move: Archers attack, and another sixth of my health is gone.

Turn four, my move: I fly closer to the enemy archers, I'm not in range of my tail swipe or my claw and my breath is still on recharge.
Turn four, enemy move: Archers shoot, I'm dead.

Battle over.

Yes, that was a simplified version of events as I didn't talk about flanking or other mechanics. Spellcasting to try and heal myself is a waste of time as well since it's just delaying the inevitable.

So that's how two normal units can take down a Level 1 Dragon Lord.

[Midas]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

If between your tail attack, charge attack and breath attack you're not able to steamroll whole stacks of T1s, I don't know what to tell you. My dragons, even at the lowest level, they just fly up to a group of enemies, blast them all for half their health, and whatever survives the rest of my units then all get killed by a tail attack. I'm not even sure how it's possible to not be utterly annihilating things as a dragon.

Yeah? And when I'm doing the same, I get massacred before I even reach the battle line.

You say it's impossible to not be utterly annihilating things as a dragon? Well, I'm calling BS on that, because when I do it, I get nailed from halfway across the tactical map.

Allow me to walk you through how it happens, and hey, I'll even put the encounter in favor of my unit and allow myself to move first, just to make it even more apparent.

Here's how the process usually goes for me:
Turn one, my move: Dragon attempts to fly close to enemy units.
Turn one, enemy move: Enemy units move in, and the polearm units instantly attack. BAM! I'm down to three quarters health.

Turn two, my move: Dragon claw takes out a couple of their men. Polearm units retaliate, slicing another sixth of my health away.
Turn two, enemy move: Hostiles attack, slicing away another third of my health. I'm now down to two-sixths of my starting health and it's not even turn three.

Turn three, my move: Dragon breath takes out the polearms.
Turn three, enemy move: Archers attack, and another sixth of my health is gone.

Turn four, my move: I fly closer to the enemy archers, I'm not in range of my tail swipe r my claw and my breath is still on recharge.
Turn five, archers shoot, I'm dead.

Battle over.

... Why would you walk a charge/shock unit into the range of a polearm and let it attack first? You're basically giving up your charge bonus and letting it hit you first even though you're the faster unit and can get your full damage from attacking from further away. Nevermind that polearm units are, just to begin with, the worse things to use shock units on, and it's even worse if you're cavalry or a large target.

You're basically deliberately walking into the hardest counter you can find, doing so in the worst way possible, and then wondering why things don't go well?

And you think the dragon needs to be so buffed that it's hard to kill even against it's most obvious counter?

[Kerry]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

Yeah? And when I'm doing the same, I get massacred before I even reach the battle line.

You say it's impossible to not be utterly annihilating things as a dragon? Well, I'm calling BS on that, because when I do it, I get nailed from halfway across the tactical map.

Allow me to walk you through how it happens, and hey, I'll even put the encounter in favor of my unit and allow myself to move first, just to make it even more apparent.

Here's how the process usually goes for me:
Turn one, my move: Dragon attempts to fly close to enemy units.
Turn one, enemy move: Enemy units move in, and the polearm units instantly attack. BAM! I'm down to three quarters health.

Turn two, my move: Dragon claw takes out a couple of their men. Polearm units retaliate, slicing another sixth of my health away.
Turn two, enemy move: Hostiles attack, slicing away another third of my health. I'm now down to two-sixths of my starting health and it's not even turn three.

Turn three, my move: Dragon breath takes out the polearms.
Turn three, enemy move: Archers attack, and another sixth of my health is gone.

Turn four, my move: I fly closer to the enemy archers, I'm not in range of my tail swipe r my claw and my breath is still on recharge.
Turn five, archers shoot, I'm dead.

Battle over.

... Why would you walk a charge/shock unit into the range of a polearm and let it attack first? You're basically giving up your charge bonus and letting it hit you first even though you're the faster unit and can get your full damage from attacking from further away. Nevermind that polearm units are, just to begin with, the worse things to use shock units on, and it's even worse if you're cavalry or a large target.

You're basically deliberately walking into the hardest counter you can find, doing so in the worst way possible, and then wondering why things don't go well?

And you think the dragon needs to be so buffed that it's hard to kill even against it's most obvious counter?

What else am I supposed to do in this encounter except die?

This is a common first battle on easy difficulty. And mind you, this isn't just any normal dragon, it's a Dragon Lord. I could understand if it was a normal dragon, those are supposed to be countered by polearm units.

[Midas]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

... Why would you walk a charge/shock unit into the range of a polearm and let it attack first? You're basically giving up your charge bonus and letting it hit you first even though you're the faster unit and can get your full damage from attacking from further away. Nevermind that polearm units are, just to begin with, the worse things to use shock units on, and it's even worse if you're cavalry or a large target.

You're basically deliberately walking into the hardest counter you can find, doing so in the worst way possible, and then wondering why things don't go well?

And you think the dragon needs to be so buffed that it's hard to kill even against it's most obvious counter?

What else am I supposed to do in this encounter except die?

This is a common first battle on easy difficulty.

Send literally anything else in first to tie up the polearm while the dragon goes past it and starts attacking other things? Did you not have any other units with you? Any other melee unit other than another shock unit would have been better for that than the dragon.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

I could understand if it was a normal dragon, those are supposed to be countered by polearm units.

No, no, you clearly do not understand. NO unit should be completely indifferent to its hardest counter. The absolute best thing in the game for pikemen to attack are large/cavalry shock units. That is their natural prey, and they can punch way above their level when fighting one. No, a dragon isn't beyond that, if it was able to shrug off even a unit that is as close as it gets to its 'natural predator', then it would be basically invincible to everything that DOESN'T have a special advantage over it.

[Kerry]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

What else am I supposed to do in this encounter except die?

This is a common first battle on easy difficulty.

Send literally anything else in first to tie up the polearm while the dragon goes past it and starts attacking other things? Did you not have any other units with you? Any other melee unit other than another shock unit would have been better for that than the dragon.

You said I should be steamrolling any and all T1 units SOLO. That means DRAGON ONLY.

Your rules, not mine.

[Midas]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

Send literally anything else in first to tie up the polearm while the dragon goes past it and starts attacking other things? Did you not have any other units with you? Any other melee unit other than another shock unit would have been better for that than the dragon.

You said I should be steamrolling any and all T1 units SOLO. That means DRAGON ONLY.

Your rules, not mine.

Where did I say anything about fighting with a dragon solo?

Sure, that CAN be done, if you know what you're doing, which you clearly do not, so no, YOU absolutely should not be trying to solo stacks with your dragon if you don't even understand basic unit synergies and counters yet.

[Kerry]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kerry:

You said I should be steamrolling any and all T1 units SOLO. That means DRAGON ONLY.

Your rules, not mine.

Where did I say anything about fighting with a dragon solo?

Sure, that CAN be done, if you know what you're doing, which you clearly do not, so no, YOU absolutely should not be trying to solo stacks with your dragon if you don't even understand basic unit synergies and counters yet.

Oh, I understand them. You on the other hand, don't seem to understand how easy it is to get killed as a dragon.

I even gave myself the only advantage I could in this situation.

And here is where you said things about fighting as a dragon, solo:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Midas:

If between your tail attack, charge attack and breath attack you're not able to steamroll whole stacks of T1s, I don't know what to tell you. My dragons, even at the lowest level, they just fly up to a group of enemies, blast them all for half their health, and whatever survives the rest of my units then all get killed by a tail attack. I'm not even sure how it's possible to not be utterly annihilating things as a dragon.

You said I should be steamrolling whole stacks of T1s.