Dragons Need a Boost

[was_fired]

Both young and ancient dragons are in a bad place in my mind since they don't fit any build. If you're going nature and get them using Tome of the Dragon you probably have Pack Leader which boosts animals... except dragons don't get that bonus.

You also might have animal kinship... which dragons also can't benefit from. You could have a hero with the Shepherd ambition which doesn't benefit dragons either when you complete your major ambition.

If you're going chaos dragons aren't even fire dragons aren't resistant immune to burning they're just resistant to fire. Now fighter based enchantments do at least affect young dragons, but once they age up those all go away. So the final result in a unit which doesn't really synergize with any build.

You even have a kind of weird state where wyverns are better than dragons for nature builds because both their young and adult forms are both animals meaning nature builds can benefit from those perks.

As far as I'm aware there are no abilities which actually benefit dragons as a type. Only dragon slayer weapons to give bonuses against them.

So could we please allow some of the animal based perks to apply to dragons or add racial transformations or traits which allow them to slot in more effectively?

[Cedrodor]

Honestly I think it kinda fits for dragons to just kind of be its own thing considering the types of dragons out there. If i had my own way i'd just buff up the tome of dragons make it tier 5 and make it separate from any affinity.

[MattStriker]

This goes for pretty much all the T5s. Very few of them are worth the cost in any way. Golden Golems are CC machines and Reapers have that kill-and-replace attack, and both have synergies thanks to unit type, but really they're still overpriced for what they do.

[The Big Brzezinski]

Mythic units aren't supposed to have as much synergy as non-mythics. Still, you can evolve young dragons faster with Evolution, buff them a bit with Goddess of Nature, and kind of work them into a Cleansing Flame/Pyromancy plan with other units.

[Pantagruel]

The thing about mythics is that, because they don't get scaling from transformations and enchantments, they're pretty good in the early to mid game, but don't scale well into the lategame. However, because the only way to get adult dragons is by evolving them, it's very hard to get them before they're becoming obsolete.

[IlluminaZero]

I mean every time I create a Necro Dragon army (IE T4 Dragons, surprisingly easy late-game) as Necromancer they just demolished everything in auto-battle. I figured that if you can actually build an entire army of T5 Dragons nothing is going to be able to "cleanly" defeat them. The issue ofc is logistics (as it should be).

Thanks to Umbral DLC I also developed a fondness for mythic units inherent immunity to mind affects (IE insanity, berserk, domination, so forth). To me their biggest advantage isn't necessarily their raw stats but that their CC immunities / resistances.

This is more significant to non-Order affinity factions though as Order in general can achieve ridiculous debuff resistance and celestial transformation also gives the hard mind-affect immunity as well... I half suspect that part of the reason Mythics are weaker is that Cleansing Flame is just so powerful ATM.

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One thing to note about buffing Dragons is that any buff not directly targeted at the Dragons themselves will also benefit the Major Dragon Transformation and Dragon Rulers. Both are already rather good.

[Typha]

Originally posted by was_fired:

Both young and ancient dragons are in a bad place in my mind since they don't fit any build. If you're going nature and get them using Tome of the Dragon you probably have Pack Leader which boosts animals... except dragons don't get that bonus.

You also might have animal kinship... which dragons also can't benefit from. You could have a hero with the Shepherd ambition which doesn't benefit dragons either when you complete your major ambition.

If you're going chaos dragons aren't even fire dragons aren't resistant immune to burning they're just resistant to fire. Now fighter based enchantments do at least affect young dragons, but once they age up those all go away. So the final result in a unit which doesn't really synergize with any build.

You even have a kind of weird state where wyverns are better than dragons for nature builds because both their young and adult forms are both animals meaning nature builds can benefit from those perks.

As far as I'm aware there are no abilities which actually benefit dragons as a type. Only dragon slayer weapons to give bonuses against them.

So could we please allow some of the animal based perks to apply to dragons or add racial transformations or traits which allow them to slot in more effectively?

I actually like that they don't have many synergies, it makes them feel like their own thing.

But yeah, they're competing against units that are really optimized with synergy + synergy +synergy. It makes them feel a bit underwhelming.

It's tricky though because earlier in the game when synergy spam isn't available, you don't want dragons to be independently super good all by themselves.

[was_fired]

If we look at mystic units as their current synergies we see:

Tier 4:
1. Giants (Storm, Fire, Rock): They're not in a good place now but in a few months we're getting a DLC focused on them so hopefully something shows up for both giants and ogres.
2. Umbral Mistress - Umbral armies pair well with them because of their immunity to umbral taint. They are also magic origin so they get astral buffs related to it.
3. Bone Dragon - Since they are undead they benefit from all of the undead focused buffs. They are are magic origin so they get that buff too.
4. Phoenix - Both animal and immune to fire
5. Righteous Judge - Zeal + condemn for order armies
6. Kraken - Animal, that said water only so almost no one keeps them
7. Ironclad - Construct which benefits from multiple tomes and perks
8. Mage Bane - Magic origin
9. Living Fog - Magic origin

Tier 5:
1. Umbral Tyrant - Magic origin + umbral taint
2. Golden Golem - Construct
3. Herald of War - Elemental + magic origin
4. Karagh - None, might get something in the giant DLC
5. Horned God - Plant + magic origin
6. Ghost Ship - Undead
7. Calamity Dragon - Magic Origin + ghost fire
8. Balor - Magic Origin
9. Earth Titan - Magic Origin + Elemental
10. Shrine of Smiting - Smiting Prayer ability scales with the number of units which have faithful
11. Severing Golem - Construct and magic origin
12. Lost Wizard - Magic Origin
13. Progenitor Golem - Construct and magic origin
14. Reaper - Undead + magic origin + abilities to make more undead in a fight
15. Prosperity Dragon - Magic Origin

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So yeah most mystic units have SOMETHING which they benefit from or tie into naturally with for builds, but the classic dragons don't. Their younger forms fit in worse with evolution builds than wyverns since those have the animal tag and can get a host of additional benefits.

From what I can tell the only mystic units that have nothing which really helps them out build-wise are Giants which will hopefully be addressed in the upcoming expansion, and dragons who already had an expansion.

I do think that demon and celestial units could use with more helpful tag interactions. Maybe something like a perk which makes all celestial units faithful or which gives all demons frenzy. However even without that since their tier 4s and 5s are magic origin astral gives buffs. Except for the shrine of smiting which is there to multiply your faithful army's damage.

[was_fired]

Originally posted by Typha:

I actually like that they don't have many synergies, it makes them feel like their own thing.

But yeah, they're competing against units that are really optimized with synergy + synergy +synergy. It makes them feel a bit underwhelming.

It's tricky though because earlier in the game when synergy spam isn't available, you don't want dragons to be independently super good all by themselves.

Except dragons aren't an early game unit. You get young dragons as part of a tier 3 tome in mid-game. So players need to ask if they want dragons from the Tome of Dragons or if they're mostly just getting it for the racial transformation.

[MattStriker]

Originally posted by was_fired:

8. Balor - Magic Origin

The Balor also has the Fiend tag which has a bunch of morale synergies. But since Chaos armies are going to be operating at max morale at all times anyway...

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by was_fired:

Originally posted by Typha:

I actually like that they don't have many synergies, it makes them feel like their own thing.

But yeah, they're competing against units that are really optimized with synergy + synergy +synergy. It makes them feel a bit underwhelming.

It's tricky though because earlier in the game when synergy spam isn't available, you don't want dragons to be independently super good all by themselves.

Except dragons aren't an early game unit. You get young dragons as part of a tier 3 tome in mid-game. So players need to ask if they want dragons from the Tome of Dragons or if they're mostly just getting it for the racial transformation.

You can still end up fighting Dragons fairly early(like Infestations), and young dragons might be available as part of Rally of the Lieges, which can be used to give them a bunch of ranks with the right setup.

So yeah, tier 5 dragons really shouldnt be too powerful, in case you run into them too early.

Also, a Ruler with the Dragonheart Ascended trait, with various ways to rank up units quickly, can get powerful tier 5 dragons fairly fast.

[was_fired]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

[
You can still end up fighting Dragons fairly early(like Infestations), and young dragons might be available as part of Rally of the Lieges, which can be used to give them a bunch of ranks with the right setup.

So yeah, tier 5 dragons really shouldnt be too powerful, in case you run into them too early.

Also, a Ruler with the Dragonheart Ascended trait, with various ways to rank up units quickly, can get powerful tier 5 dragons fairly fast.

Wait so there actually IS a trait for this? I hadn't run into the Dragonheart ascension trait so I wasn't aware that synergy even existed. While I would like something a bit more generic or racial that great to see.

[IlluminaZero]

Yep. Dragonheart not only will boost a Pantheon hero that has Major Transformation: Dragon Form but can transition into; effectively, being a racial bonus once Dragon Transformation is applied to the race (again) mid-campaign.

[Astronimo]

Originally posted by was_fired:

11. Severing Golem - Construct and magic origin

Only construct.
Key parts for them are:
1) Construct, so lots of buffs and you can use Duracell on them
2) AoE weakened attack, up to 3 times
3) Free cleanse to nearby units
4) Their global attack can deal stupid amount of damage if you stack them in your army. No joke, 30x5 frost damage with no range limit. Plus Disruption

[Astronimo]

Originally posted by MattStriker:

Originally posted by was_fired:

8. Balor - Magic Origin

The Balor also has the Fiend tag which has a bunch of morale synergies. But since Chaos armies are going to be operating at max morale at all times anyway...

It's more about maintaining it.
For reference, Warrior with Willbreaker and visious killer can do something like 20-40 morale damage in 3 hex radius.

[was_fired]

Originally posted by Astronimo:

Originally posted by was_fired:

11. Severing Golem - Construct and magic origin

Only construct.
Key parts for them are:
1) Construct, so lots of buffs and you can use Duracell on them
2) AoE weakened attack, up to 3 times
3) Free cleanse to nearby units
4) Their global attack can deal stupid amount of damage if you stack them in your army. No joke, 30x5 frost damage with no range limit. Plus Disruption

Ah my bad on that one. That construct alone is a crazy good tag for synergy since it works with Linked Minds to grant flanking immunity plus Cascading Command: Reposition to strengthen and hasten a huge chunk of your army with a single spell. Also artificers overcharge is a REALLY handy buff.

I still feel like the core dragon units (not everything of the dragon type) are under-tuned. I think giving them the animal tag would be a bit too much, but maybe adding a True Dragon tag that also can trigger for certain animal abilities or making hero skills like Dragonheart which can be applied as a wider racial feature albeit in a weaker format.