Units attacking multiple times in one action

[GorishiDan]

TLDR: Why do some units attack more than once per turn and others don't? (meaning within one single action. think of an archer unit attacking and firing 3 burst of arrows, dealing damage 3 times)

i've noticed this for some time and so far have been unable to find a pattern on what to expect to plan better. I've a hero archer that sometimes will attack once and sometimes 3, dealing a ton of damage. same for run of the mill units.

At 1st i thought this came down to how many units there are. for instance, in the formation, a T1 archer unit consists of 6 archers. so i figured maybe they attack once for every 2 archers but that wasn't it. And then there's action points. i thought maybe if i didn't move and just attacked, all points would be consumed to attack as many times as i have points but this also isn't it cuz sometimes i'll just attack without moving and damage is only dealt once.

Anyone understands how this works and can explain it? I've heard the Spawnkin transformation (which ive been staying away from as ive no idea how it works) also influence this but still no clue.

[darkholyPL]

You mean repeated attack vs single attack?
Some attacks can be repeated up to 3 times, if you have action points for it. That is, if you don't move and still have your 3 ation points, you can attack 3 times (on a repeating attack only).
Is that what you're confused about? Or something else?

Btw look at the attack icon and see the dots there. If it looks like this: O))), that means it's a repeating attack. If it's just a single dot, then it's a single attack.

[No Leaf Clover]

Units get 3 action points. When you move, you spend action points, and when you attack as well. So if you don't move, you get three attacks.

[Raelic]

Yea, you get action points. Some attacks take more action points than others, but if you have 3 action points and an action that only costs one action point, you can use it three times.

[GorishiDan]

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

You mean repeated attack vs single attack?
Some attacks can be repeated up to 3 times, if you have action points for it. That is, if you don't move and still have your 3 ation points, you can attack 3 times (on a repeating attack only).
Is that what you're confused about? Or something else?

Btw look at the attack icon and see the dots there. If it looks like this: O))), that means it's a repeating attack. If it's just a single dot, then it's a single attack.

i'll try to do some testing cuz i do remember seeing the icon you described and still got only 1 attack but can't remember if the unit had moved or not as i often battle with a mix of manual w/ auto combat while toggling off the latter whenever i wanna do something specific.

[yuzhonglu]

Crossbow and skirmish units can only attack once in ranged. This is to balance fact they can move and shoot at same time.

[Winterwolf]

I think you guys are forgetting to mention if you move to where you only spend 1 action point you can get 2 attacks in from the remaining action points.

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by GorishiDan:

TLDR: Why do some units attack more than once per turn and others don't? (meaning within one single action. think of an archer unit attacking and firing 3 burst of arrows, dealing damage 3 times)

i've noticed this for some time and so far have been unable to find a pattern on what to expect to plan better. I've a hero archer that sometimes will attack once and sometimes 3, dealing a ton of damage. same for run of the mill units.

At 1st i thought this came down to how many units there are. for instance, in the formation, a T1 archer unit consists of 6 archers. so i figured maybe they attack once for every 2 archers but that wasn't it. And then there's action points. i thought maybe if i didn't move and just attacked, all points would be consumed to attack as many times as i have points but this also isn't it cuz sometimes i'll just attack without moving and damage is only dealt once.

Anyone understands how this works and can explain it? I've heard the Spawnkin transformation (which ive been staying away from as ive no idea how it works) also influence this but still no clue.

You will not find a simple pattern. It is balancing what lead to the design.

Take for example bow and crossbow

bows = multishot
crossbows = single shot

At first as feels weird as both are basically ranged missile launchers. But the damage caused by bow per hit is significantly lower than with a crossbow (unit). Under ideal circumstances the total result would be the same, but it is not since each weapon come also with special effects and multiplayer. That is more obvious with heroes and their weapons, naturally. For the normal units on the other hand modifiers play a strong role, and the overall balancing - hence why one culture has per default bow units, the other does not and so on.

You can see that with many units you want to compare. Shock, Defender, Pikemen

Shock -> 1 hit attack only, but cancels retaliation
Defender -> multihit, suffers retaliation
Pikeman -> multihit, suffers very strong from retaliation and shock attacks, but has cavalary and giant slayer which the others do not have

Sure, you can fantasy around like: bowmen are faster drawing their bows than crossbow users, or shock units need to run before hit, they cannot do that multiple times etc.

But by the end of the day it is a balancing matter. Like wizard staff for heroes have superior effect but can only attack once - while orb users have multihit but low damage and rarely weapon effects beyond the multihit.

[Winterwolf]

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Originally posted by GorishiDan:

TLDR: Why do some units attack more than once per turn and others don't? (meaning within one single action. think of an archer unit attacking and firing 3 burst of arrows, dealing damage 3 times)

i've noticed this for some time and so far have been unable to find a pattern on what to expect to plan better. I've a hero archer that sometimes will attack once and sometimes 3, dealing a ton of damage. same for run of the mill units.

At 1st i thought this came down to how many units there are. for instance, in the formation, a T1 archer unit consists of 6 archers. so i figured maybe they attack once for every 2 archers but that wasn't it. And then there's action points. i thought maybe if i didn't move and just attacked, all points would be consumed to attack as many times as i have points but this also isn't it cuz sometimes i'll just attack without moving and damage is only dealt once.

Anyone understands how this works and can explain it? I've heard the Spawnkin transformation (which ive been staying away from as ive no idea how it works) also influence this but still no clue.

You will not find a simple pattern. It is balancing what lead to the design.

Take for example bow and crossbow

bows = multishot
crossbows = single shot

At first as feels weird as both are basically ranged missile launchers. But the damage caused by bow per hit is significantly lower than with a crossbow (unit). Under ideal circumstances the total result would be the same, but it is not since each weapon come also with special effects and multiplayer. That is more obvious with heroes and their weapons, naturally. For the normal units on the other hand modifiers play a strong role, and the overall balancing - hence why one culture has per default bow units, the other does not and so on.

You can see that with many units you want to compare. Shock, Defender, Pikemen

Shock -> 1 hit attack only, but cancels retaliation
Defender -> multihit, suffers retaliation
Pikeman -> multihit, suffers very strong from retaliation and shock attacks, but has cavalary and giant slayer which the others do not have

Sure, you can fantasy around like: bowmen are faster drawing their bows than crossbow users, or shock units need to run before hit, they cannot do that multiple times etc.

But by the end of the day it is a balancing matter. Like wizard staff for heroes have superior effect but can only attack once - while orb users have multihit but low damage and rarely weapon effects beyond the multihit.

Dark Warriors are shock and pretty sure they get multi-attack and cancel retaliation

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by Winterwolf:

Originally posted by アンジェル:

You will not find a simple pattern. It is balancing what lead to the design.

Take for example bow and crossbow

bows = multishot
crossbows = single shot

At first as feels weird as both are basically ranged missile launchers. But the damage caused by bow per hit is significantly lower than with a crossbow (unit). Under ideal circumstances the total result would be the same, but it is not since each weapon come also with special effects and multiplayer. That is more obvious with heroes and their weapons, naturally. For the normal units on the other hand modifiers play a strong role, and the overall balancing - hence why one culture has per default bow units, the other does not and so on.

You can see that with many units you want to compare. Shock, Defender, Pikemen

Shock -> 1 hit attack only, but cancels retaliation
Defender -> multihit, suffers retaliation
Pikeman -> multihit, suffers very strong from retaliation and shock attacks, but has cavalary and giant slayer which the others do not have

Sure, you can fantasy around like: bowmen are faster drawing their bows than crossbow users, or shock units need to run before hit, they cannot do that multiple times etc.

But by the end of the day it is a balancing matter. Like wizard staff for heroes have superior effect but can only attack once - while orb users have multihit but low damage and rarely weapon effects beyond the multihit.

Dark Warriors are shock and pretty sure they get multi-attack and cancel retaliation

Feel free to look it up.

[Winterwolf]

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Originally posted by Winterwolf:

Dark Warriors are shock and pretty sure they get multi-attack and cancel retaliation

Feel free to look it up.

Ahhhh but I'm lazy.. look it up for me... please? xD

[Archaon The Never-Chosen]

Originally posted by Winterwolf:

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Feel free to look it up.

Ahhhh but I'm lazy.. look it up for me... please? xD

they do not, dark warriors have only one attack like berserkers

[Winterwolf]

Originally posted by Archaon The Never-Chosen:

Originally posted by Winterwolf:

Ahhhh but I'm lazy.. look it up for me... please? xD

they do not, dark warriors have only one attack like berserkers

Hmmmm.. I guess I'm just trippin'...

[GorishiDan]

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Originally posted by GorishiDan:

snip

You will not find a simple pattern. It is balancing what lead to the design.

Take for example bow and crossbow

bows = multishot
crossbows = single shot

At first as feels weird as both are basically ranged missile launchers. But the damage caused by bow per hit is significantly lower than with a crossbow (unit). Under ideal circumstances the total result would be the same, but it is not since each weapon come also with special effects and multiplayer. That is more obvious with heroes and their weapons, naturally. For the normal units on the other hand modifiers play a strong role, and the overall balancing - hence why one culture has per default bow units, the other does not and so on.

You can see that with many units you want to compare. Shock, Defender, Pikemen

Shock -> 1 hit attack only, but cancels retaliation
Defender -> multihit, suffers retaliation
Pikeman -> multihit, suffers very strong from retaliation and shock attacks, but has cavalary and giant slayer which the others do not have

Sure, you can fantasy around like: bowmen are faster drawing their bows than crossbow users, or shock units need to run before hit, they cannot do that multiple times etc.

But by the end of the day it is a balancing matter. Like wizard staff for heroes have superior effect but can only attack once - while orb users have multihit but low damage and rarely weapon effects beyond the multihit.

I see. Does "Spawnkin" not influence in this like i was told it does? I initially thought it would increase the army stack cap from 6 units to 7 but that was clearly not it.

[MEATSHED]

Yeah swarmkin just increases damage but adds more models to your units (meaning that take losses and lose damage faster)

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by GorishiDan:

Originally posted by アンジェル:

You will not find a simple pattern. It is balancing what lead to the design.

Take for example bow and crossbow

bows = multishot
crossbows = single shot

At first as feels weird as both are basically ranged missile launchers. But the damage caused by bow per hit is significantly lower than with a crossbow (unit). Under ideal circumstances the total result would be the same, but it is not since each weapon come also with special effects and multiplayer. That is more obvious with heroes and their weapons, naturally. For the normal units on the other hand modifiers play a strong role, and the overall balancing - hence why one culture has per default bow units, the other does not and so on.

You can see that with many units you want to compare. Shock, Defender, Pikemen

Shock -> 1 hit attack only, but cancels retaliation
Defender -> multihit, suffers retaliation
Pikeman -> multihit, suffers very strong from retaliation and shock attacks, but has cavalary and giant slayer which the others do not have

Sure, you can fantasy around like: bowmen are faster drawing their bows than crossbow users, or shock units need to run before hit, they cannot do that multiple times etc.

But by the end of the day it is a balancing matter. Like wizard staff for heroes have superior effect but can only attack once - while orb users have multihit but low damage and rarely weapon effects beyond the multihit.

I see. Does "Spawnkin" not influence in this like i was told it does? I initially thought it would increase the army stack cap from 6 units to 7 but that was clearly not it.

No. You are misunderstanding a core element there. No one blames you though, due to the general phrasing of how it works.

Spawnkin affects the units, within your army units. Not the units within your army.

See the issue with that phrasing?

First: Spawnking gives per default according to the description +20 damage, that is what you are after.

Second: let us take a closer look on what makes it interesting and how it works. Advance Wars will help us with that.

https://www.pcguru.hu/uploads/gallery/mid/advance-wars-12-re-boot-camp-jatekkepek-e944abe609c034ecad49-mid.jpg

If a unit has full HP, it is reflected, displayed by 5 units within the unit. Why is that important? Because when a unit suffers damage, their own damage output they deal is reduced. Hence the display with units within a unit. A full HP unit has in that screenshot 5 soldiers. The red army's unit (yeah, yeah, Orange Star - it just does not look orange) has suffered already damage and is with 8/10 HP -> 80% out of 5 units = 4 units left. On the other hand Black Hole's unit has only half HP -> roughly 3 units left (50% out of 5)

Age of Wonders 4 describes the mechanic officially as casualty, wheras a unit deal proportionally less damage, depending on much it is damaged and how many units within the units are left. So if a mage unit which consist normally of two has its HP halfed, the number of mages in that unit halves too and that unit deal only half as much damage as before.

Spawnkin affect those numbers. Where an archer unit e.g. has before 3 units within the unit, Spawnkin adds - uhm, I do not recall, lets go with one more and call this example - it changes the archer unit from 3 archers to 4 archers. The damage output is fixed as the mentioned above 20%. But now the unit is more robust due to the change, because it does not lose as much damage output as before due to rounding errors.

If that archer unit suffered before losing 1 unit when it got damaged 30%. Then it would lose 1/3 damage output (-30%). With spawnkin it would lose only 1/4 damage output (-25%) because the units within the unit are smaller, but more in numbers. More in numbers mean they can compensate it better and prevent disadvantages from rounding the numbers.

The whole opposite effect has Supergrowth. Makes your units overall have more HP and tougher, but they clearly suffer strongly when a unit within a unit is lost.

As you can see, once more the balancing of the game plays the main role here.

For beginners I recommend just to look at the +20% flat damage bonus you get with Spawnkin. But also feel free to see how Casualty works in game.

Heroes and Tier V and other large single units do not suffer from Casualty. Since... they are just a single entity within an army unit. Simple as that.