Races should have different trait pools

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

I know this is something of a heated debate over this, but I don't think the races should have inherent difference between them, but that they should have different mixes of traits you can pick from the trait pool. So you wouldn't have access to traits that aren't thematic or wouldn't make sense for a particular race, but also going forward you can ensure you can have interesting and powerful traits without having to worry about two traits being overpowered if paired together because you can simply ensure that no race has both of them in their pools.

I also thought it would be neat to have unique, optional racial traits that each race has access to. These shouldn't be like the other traits, which are essentially just straight buffs, but similar to the unlockable society traits in the sense that there's drawbacks and they're more intended for a specialized or thematic playthrough. So, for instance, the elves might get something like "Fay and Wan" giving them a buff to magic and their battle mages and support units, but also reducing their base hit points. Or orcs getting big bonuses to combat, but they can no longer engage in diplomacy and everyone hates you.

[sandman25dcsss]

Ok, I agree with OP, but only if I am the single person who decides race traits. It will be funny when I make Elf cannibals and there is no way to remove the trait.

Hopefully this will help the guys realize why it is a bad idea.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

The Doctor eredeti hozzászólása:

Naram-Sin eredeti hozzászólása:

Why would I restrict myself? Did you not read my post? The options are too bland and grey to care about restricting. It is only through exclusivity and restriction that you could have racial traits that might be worth caring about beyond simple min maxing. None of these "+10% damage" type "traits" are really worth thinking about except in the context of your faction. Like I said, as it stands, the factions are the real "races" and you'll notice you *aren't* free to mix and match faction traits.

I won't restrict myself because there's nothing worthwhile to restrict. I'm not angry about it. It's just made races a bit bland when they could be interesting. I thought this might be a happy compromise, but apparently it's cosmetic or nothing with this particular lot.

Why would I restrict myself?
I won't restrict myself because there's nothing worthwhile to restrict.

Let me rephrase this part:
It is only through exclusivity and restriction that I could have racial traits that might be worth caring about beyond simple min maxing.

This is a YOU issue. I'm certainly not talking about min maxing - I'm talking about the freedom to make them they way WE want to in our own games. I'll make mine the way I want them to be with the options we've been provided and you can make them the way you want to if you cared about what we've been given to work with.

Your reasoning for there being nothing worthwhile is just your opinion. I don't agree with any of that quoted above and, yes, I have read your posts. I don't think you're reading mine but I don't care because we're 'discussing' what you want for us all.

If you think there are not enough traits to create the 'unique' races you imagine, then suggest some new traits. As I posted above, there will probably be more of these added as the game progresses.

No, it isn't a me issue, though you're trying to make it one.

I'm not saying that it's exclusivity or restrictions themselves that make traits interesting. I'm saying that the traits aren't interesting. Period. They're a bunch of flat bonuses and mild perks. The factions are interesting.

There is a reason why, from a mechanical and balance standpoint, the traits can't be interesting while the factions can. I have already discussed this.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

sandman25dcsss eredeti hozzászólása:

Ok, I agree with OP, but only if I am the single person who decides race traits. It will be funny when I make Elf cannibals and there is no way to remove the trait.

Hopefully this will help the guys realize why it is a bad idea.

I didn't there should be inherent, unremovable traits.

My original post was saying that you should have the ability to customize your race, but there should be different trait pools to choose from, and you could also have race-unique traits that could be used to switch up gameplay.

[sandman25dcsss]

Naram-Sin eredeti hozzászólása:

sandman25dcsss eredeti hozzászólása:

Ok, I agree with OP, but only if I am the single person who decides race traits. It will be funny when I make Elf cannibals and there is no way to remove the trait.

Hopefully this will help the guys realize why it is a bad idea.

I didn't there should be inherent, unremovable traits.

My original post was saying that you should have the ability to customize your race, but there should be different trait pools to choose from, and you could also have race-unique traits that could be used to switch up gameplay.

It does not change anything. If you create a race-unique trait which can be taken as Elf and cannot be taken as Orc, you still limit my freedom without any reason because I will want the trait as Orc. It should be just yet another trait which can be taken by any race. Or I will design it so unique corpse-eating can be taken by Elves only :)

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

sandman25dcsss eredeti hozzászólása:

Naram-Sin eredeti hozzászólása:

I didn't there should be inherent, unremovable traits.

My original post was saying that you should have the ability to customize your race, but there should be different trait pools to choose from, and you could also have race-unique traits that could be used to switch up gameplay.

It does not change anything. If you create a race-unique trait which can be taken as Elf and cannot be taken as Orc, you still limit my freedom without any reason because I will want the trait as Orc. It should be just yet another trait which can be taken by any race.

Okay, and I can't recruit arcanists as the Barbarian culture. Do you disagree with that as well?

[sandman25dcsss]

Naram-Sin eredeti hozzászólása:

sandman25dcsss eredeti hozzászólása:

It does not change anything. If you create a race-unique trait which can be taken as Elf and cannot be taken as Orc, you still limit my freedom without any reason because I will want the trait as Orc. It should be just yet another trait which can be taken by any race.

Okay, and I can't recruit arcanists as the Barbarian culture. Do you disagree with that as well?

Of course. Ideally each cultural unit has some cost and you can select which units you can produce. Selecting several tier 3 units could be fun for me, even if it means I cannot build any tier 2 units.

[Terrkas]

Naram-Sin eredeti hozzászólása:

Judge Cudge eredeti hozzászólása:

In MMO's usually the races matter. And I don't want racial tropes I wan't the choices to matter.

In a few games, admittedly, to the consternation of a significant portion of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ who make up most of the modern MMO audience.

Choices usually don't matter if you have access to all of them at once. If choice is limited, you can have planned systems and thematic strengths and weaknesses. If you have access to all the choices, those choices inevitably made to be grey, bland and generally low impact. This is the reason why classes are almost always more distinctive and iconic in RPGs than any build in the "classless progression system" meme.

You know, I dont get that argument about choices dont matter if you have unlimmited choices.
Sure, you could in everygame, that lasts long enough pick all tomes. Could create every possible combination of form, culture, traits and play those chioces.

But your choices are allways limited atleast by outsidefactors like most importantly time. No one will ever be able to play an average match as every possible combination of ruler, form, culture, traits, tomes. Because if we add that all up, it will be an insanely high number.

Saying choices dont matter because there is the option to do all choices doesnt make your choice meaningless.

You could otherwise say basically the same about anything other. It doesnt matter what food you eat, you could potentially eat anything. It doesnt matter what job you do, you could do any other (and we all know, that the job does matter a lot).
Thats what your argument sounds like.

[Terrkas]

sandman25dcsss eredeti hozzászólása:

Ok, I agree with OP, but only if I am the single person who decides race traits. It will be funny when I make Elf cannibals and there is no way to remove the trait.

Hopefully this will help the guys realize why it is a bad idea.

Make the mod. Call it superior creativity mod, that restricts your choices for forms to meet thematic themes, thus enhancing creativty according to "insert quote from steamusers".

Then make halflings and elves cannibals only. Give humans forced water adaptation and rename the human form to "swamppeople".
Orcform is now "musclebrains" they can only pick the strenght perk for +10% physical damage for body and mind is the one about more magic damage.

[sandman25dcsss]

Terrkas eredeti hozzászólása:

sandman25dcsss eredeti hozzászólása:

Ok, I agree with OP, but only if I am the single person who decides race traits. It will be funny when I make Elf cannibals and there is no way to remove the trait.

Hopefully this will help the guys realize why it is a bad idea.

Make the mod. Call it superior creativity mod, that restricts your choices for forms to meet thematic themes, thus enhancing creativty according to "insert quote from steamusers".

Then make halflings and elves cannibals only. Give humans forced water adaptation and rename the human form to "swamppeople".
Orcform is now "musclebrains" they can only pick the strenght perk for +10% physical damage for body and mind is the one about more magic damage.

I am fine with any mod because mods are optional. Sorry, I am not interested in mod creation.

[Terrkas]

sandman25dcsss eredeti hozzászólása:

Terrkas eredeti hozzászólása:

Make the mod. Call it superior creativity mod, that restricts your choices for forms to meet thematic themes, thus enhancing creativty according to "insert quote from steamusers".

Then make halflings and elves cannibals only. Give humans forced water adaptation and rename the human form to "swamppeople".
Orcform is now "musclebrains" they can only pick the strenght perk for +10% physical damage for body and mind is the one about more magic damage.

I am fine with any mod because mods are optional. Sorry, I am not interested in mod creation.

Was more of a joke, anyway. Time to conquer storyrealm 3 with my cannibal elves.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

sandman25dcsss eredeti hozzászólása:

Naram-Sin eredeti hozzászólása:

Okay, and I can't recruit arcanists as the Barbarian culture. Do you disagree with that as well?

Of course. Ideally each cultural unit has some cost and you can select which units you can produce. Selecting several tier 3 units could be fun for me, even if it means I cannot build any tier 2 units.

We'll agree to disagree then. Allowing factions to swap units and mechanics would be trash.

[Zebulon Ecthelion]

Terrkas eredeti hozzászólása:

Naram-Sin eredeti hozzászólása:

In a few games, admittedly, to the consternation of a significant portion of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ who make up most of the modern MMO audience.

Choices usually don't matter if you have access to all of them at once. If choice is limited, you can have planned systems and thematic strengths and weaknesses. If you have access to all the choices, those choices inevitably made to be grey, bland and generally low impact. This is the reason why classes are almost always more distinctive and iconic in RPGs than any build in the "classless progression system" meme.

You know, I dont get that argument about choices dont matter if you have unlimmited choices.
Sure, you could in everygame, that lasts long enough pick all tomes. Could create every possible combination of form, culture, traits and play those chioces.

But your choices are allways limited atleast by outsidefactors like most importantly time. No one will ever be able to play an average match as every possible combination of ruler, form, culture, traits, tomes. Because if we add that all up, it will be an insanely high number.

Saying choices dont matter because there is the option to do all choices doesnt make your choice meaningless.

You could otherwise say basically the same about anything other. It doesnt matter what food you eat, you could potentially eat anything. It doesnt matter what job you do, you could do any other (and we all know, that the job does matter a lot).
Thats what your argument sounds like.

Once again, I'm not saying that choices don't matter because they are a lot of them. I'm saying that the choices don't matter. The cause of the choices not mattering is, since there are a lot of them, the devs make the choices matter less and less the more of them there are. There's a relationship between the two, but it's indirect rather than direct. More choice doesn't directly cause less flavor. Instead, it causes the developers to make decisions that reduce or eliminate flavor.

The traits aren't uninteresting because they're unrestricted. They're uninteresting on their own. Restricting them won't make them more interesting, you just have a arbitrarily smaller selection of uninteresting traits. Rather, the restriction allows you to make interesting traits because you don't have to worry about breaking the game with balance issues and the like.

[akakurei]

After playing for some time, a good addition would be there is a third trait special to every race. you still can customize as of right now but let a trait that has both positive and negative effects fixed on that particular race. I like the customization in this compared to AoW3 but there is still room for any more improvement. Just my 2 cents.

[Drake]

ap_3k eredeti hozzászólása:

After playing for some time, a good addition would be there is a third trait special to every race. you still can customize as of right now but let a trait that has both positive and negative effects fixed on that particular race. I like the customization in this compared to AoW3 but there is still room for any more improvement. Just my 2 cents.

No, form isn't race.

Let's pick an actual example. I did a gnome faction (around astral/nature). There isn't a gnome form, but there is an halfling form. I took that form and gave the unicorn and arcane trait.
Then I made the form look like a gnome.

So I didn't make some variation of the halfling race. I made a gnome race. Adding traits to forms that you can't change kills that purpose.

[TiberiusGaben]

you filthy non toad things cling to your tomes as if they will not fail you . i have already been saved shown strength by the path of shadow flesh fails but shadow is eternal