Raising an undead army is too good

[Moo]

The undead army thing needs to get reworked. As it is now, you don't ever need more than the 1st Shadow tome (Necromancy) and you'll be able have a massive undead army at your disposal. There needs to be more investment in the Shadow tome upgrades in order to achieve this. I think there should be some sort of limit of undead units you can have based on the number of Shadow affinity points you have, and if you go above that cap, then the undead upkeep costs will increase by a certain amount (gold/magic/souls, right now there's no souls upkeep costs), like how you get penalized when you go over the city cap. Each Shadow affinity point can support something like 20 undead units, if you research the T5 Shadow tome, then the cap will be removed.

[Pantagruel]

It's important to realize that a lot of things people to do on a theory of making the game harder... don't actually make the game harder.

Most notably, anything that makes neutrals more powerful (high world threat, various map traits) tends to cripple the other AIs. Large maps also make the game easier, as it gives you more free farming time (which the AI is bad at) and means the AIs are more likely to decide you're too far away to attack.

[Estellese]

Originally posted by TirAsleen:

Originally posted by Estellese:

What do you mean? Wouldn't slow research speed be better for the AI, since it takes longer for the player to actually catch up to their advantages?

No, because slow settings affect the A.I. too and A.I. is allready not doing well casting spells in combat or using optimal unit enchantments + unit types.

It could build several stacks of buffed Pyre Templars or Mistresses, using multiple times sleep of oblivion, lava burst and devouring void in combat, but obviously its not coded to make much use of late game stuff and not coded to build effective high Tier unit mono stacks.

So, research does not do much for A.I.s, regardless of speed, the slow build speed, however, might cripple it more.

But, if you want to see an A.I. build reapers any time soon use the fast research setting or Noctus presence Ruler A.I.

But, under fast research. If, as you say, the AI will not effectively use the late-game content. Shifting the game's focus from early game (slow research) to late game (fast research) would just mean I get the late game content faster. Which gives me a huge advantage because I will now have units and spells that the AI effectively doesn't. (Since the AI can't use them well.)

Whereas, slow research, means I can't get that advantage as fast. I have to face them with a more limited toolset for longer before I break ahead into tools the AI can not use.

And also, for long games, they seem to use higher tiers more when their have bigger empires. So by the time we get there they use higher tier units a little more since their empire is more developed. That might be affected by mod though, I do have a mod that gives more cultural units of tier 3 and 4.

(And I am talking about slowest research speed, normal build speed.)

[Moo]

Originally posted by Pantagruel:

It's important to realize that a lot of things people to do on a theory of making the game harder... don't actually make the game harder.

Most notably, anything that makes neutrals more powerful (high world threat, various map traits) tends to cripple the other AIs. Large maps also make the game easier, as it gives you more free farming time (which the AI is bad at) and means the AIs are more likely to decide you're too far away to attack.

These theories are actually incorrect. While it's true the AI plays better when the world threat is turned down, in my personal experience, you are also playing better, and you play better at a higher intensity than the AI. So comparatively you have an even bigger edge over the AI. It also takes time for the AI to build up its doomstacks, when you run into an AI army for the 1st time, they tend to have very large armies with numerous doomstacks. Once you've been skirmishing them for awhile, they don't have time to build up new mega doomstacks armies anymore.

[✧Starshadow Melody✧]

I think that Necromancy

[Humble]

Let not make useful into useless, I think it's fine as were, although, I don't see overpower but it's was easier to use if you don't mind management of ton of army, as some point out, it's cost lot mana for low level units, it's already had downside, not only cost mana, but you had to kill enemies to get stronger, you can't be stronger before kill enemies, only after, if you winning, that is, and enchantment won't work on those rise undead as well, it's only work on your normal troops.

In all, all, I felt they are right, balanced for what it is and it's design as it's suppose to be. It's cost lot of mana for small map, although.

Other issues, I don't like way undead look if other faction isn't humankind, I like normal size humankind undead type, but sadly you rise dead from enemies who are not humankind, it's not look awesome, I like or prefer humankind undead type look.

[Pantagruel]

Originally posted by jeem9000:

These theories are actually incorrect. While it's true the AI plays better when the world threat is turned down, in my personal experience, you are also playing better, and you play better at a higher intensity than the AI.

High world threat does slow down your early game, but it's not that hard to be good enough at map clearing for that not to make a major difference, and (due to more xp on the map) enter midgame with higher level heroes and more experienced units.

[TirAsleen]

Originally posted by Pantagruel:

It's important to realize that a lot of things people to do on a theory of making the game harder... don't actually make the game harder.

Most notably, anything that makes neutrals more powerful (high world threat, various map traits) tends to cripple the other AIs. Large maps also make the game easier, as it gives you more free farming time (which the AI is bad at) and means the AIs are more likely to decide you're too far away to attack.

True.

Btw, someone should tell the OP that he should not play AoW4 like a Civ game.

[Moo]

Originally posted by Pantagruel:

High world threat does slow down your early game, but it's not that hard to be good enough at map clearing for that not to make a major difference, and (due to more xp on the map) enter midgame with higher level heroes and more experienced units.

I was advised to play on normal world threat as that would make the game harder, and it was absolutely not true. It was way easier than high world threat. I can just go about doing whatever I had planned and not get side tracked because I had to constantly defend against incursions. And you don't run out of stuff to fight either, it's not like you're ever sitting idle, if you weren't fighting infestations, you'd be clearing out resource nodes or fighting the AI. In fact I would argue you actually get more xp at normal world settings as you can efficiently plan out where and what you want to clear out each turn, as opposed to high world threat, where you are responding to the constant threats that half of the time you are running back and forth, traveling rather than fighting and actively gaining xp. Of course, I might just be playing the game wrong, as it is not the prescribed way to play AoW4.

[Moo]

Originally posted by TirAsleen:

It never crashes for me? Not in combat. But performance may be worse with turns over 100.

It didn't used to crash much, but with the new DLC, it's crashed very frequently, especially in big battles. It might be because I am playing Oathsworn? There are some new game mechanics and interactions that are not working properly?

Skellie spam like this maybe good at high turns when you basicly won and have lots of map control and all the eco, but you artificial prolonged the game, you do not play a game on your screenshots anymore the game was won long ago and now you are just watching a simulation for funsies, the income you have here is something i would rahter expect from a brutal difficulty A.I. not a human player.

No, I can raise skeletons pretty early, obviously not at the same quantities as later on, and you can do it throughout the game. The cost to raise them is extremely low, as each unit you kill generate more souls, if your city can also generate some souls, raising skeletons is not an issue at all. I don't really need souls for anything else, maybe a few here and there like for something like animating heroes, but it's not a recurring expense. Economic powr equals military power, so building up the economy is a priority for me.

But before turn 80-90, drafted T1 legendary rank units are simply better than skellies.

I've never argued skeleton units are stronger than cultural or tome units. My main army in my current game consist of Hero, Honor Blade, Wildspeaker, Vowkeeper, and Peacebringer. White Witch could be a possible mage unit, but I didn't take Cryomancy. My argument has always been that skeletons are practically free, so why not use them? Use as many as your economy can support.

[Pantagruel]

Originally posted by jeem9000:

I was advised to play on normal world threat as that would make the game harder, and it was absolutely not true. It was way easier than high world threat. I can just go about doing whatever I had planned and not get side tracked because I had to constantly defend against incursions.

Normal world threat makes the other godir more dangerous. It makes marauders less dangerous -- but I've never had an issue with dealing with infestations even at high.

[Moo]

Originally posted by Pantagruel:

Normal world threat makes the other godir more dangerous.

Only marginally, but you also get better, and you get better much faster than them. Relatively speaking, your lead over them widens, and that makes the game easier overall.

It makes marauders dangerous -- but I've never had an issue with dealing with infestations even at high.

The problem isn't the player can't deal with them, the problem is you HAVE to deal with them... nonstop.

[Pantagruel]

Originally posted by jeem9000:

The problem isn't the player can't deal with them, the problem is you HAVE to deal with them... nonstop.

No you don't. Kill them and they're gone. Even regenerating isn't that many things to kill.

[TirAsleen]

Originally posted by Estellese:

But, under fast research. If, as you say, the AI will not effectively use the late-game content. Shifting the game's focus from early game (slow research) to late game (fast research) would just mean I get the late game content faster. Which gives me a huge advantage because I will now have units and spells that the AI effectively doesn't. (Since the AI can't use them well.)

Whereas, slow research, means I can't get that advantage as fast. I have to face them with a more limited toolset for longer before I break ahead into tools the AI can not use.

And also, for long games, they seem to use higher tiers more when their have bigger empires. So by the time we get there they use higher tier units a little more since their empire is more developed. That might be affected by mod though, I do have a mod that gives more cultural units of tier 3 and 4.

(And I am talking about slowest research speed, normal build speed.)

Faster research is just for the immersion to see A.I. building T5 units, at slow research you will probably never see them doing it. Some people did post this issue here on steam at slow research settings and over 100 turns, where as stack of reapers are possible at turn 60, if the research is fast or the A.I. is noctus with inherent faster research rates and normal research.

Slow research only benefits the player not A.I.s, as it takes longer for it to put most important unit enchantments on its units.

Because as a player, you only need your T1 units and draft them at max rank with some unit enchantments + you also got your heroes to back you up. Those can be ritualist support healing heroes to make up for a lack of support heals, which may be needed vs decay magic and poison spam. You can also have 3 mage heroes using all evocation lightning+channel power+ aethermancy and this only needs 5 skill points, but destroys and disables most kinds of A.I. stacks.
Something that can be done with zero research, but A.I. don't do this.

A.I.s other than the demon prince and noctus have no early game advantages, you gonna need to play vs presence rulers that start out with unit enchantments, certain tome unlocks more cities, high level rulers and major and minor race transformations, so there is even remotely a competition.

Its best to leave the research setting alone, if you don' use either Noctus or the Demon Prince as presence Rulers. Noctus have a higher research than anyone else, and the Demon Prince simply does not care, his best units are the Dark Warriors, Pyromancers and Skalds - the Warbreed is very easy to kill due to large size and has most of the times, a lower medal rank as T4 unit.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1669000/discussions/0/4757578612645334766/?ctp=2

Post 20, by Jordi for further reference.

[.Master Jiren, The Strongest]

Originally posted by jeem9000:

The undead army thing needs to get reworked. As it is now, you don't ever need more than the 1st Shadow tome (Necromancy) and you'll be able have a massive undead army at your disposal. There needs to be more investment in the Shadow tome upgrades in order to achieve this. I think there should be some sort of limit of undead units you can have based on the number of Shadow affinity points you have, and if you go above that cap, then the undead upkeep costs will increase by a certain amount (gold/magic/souls, right now there's no souls upkeep costs), like how you get penalized when you go over the city cap. Each Shadow affinity point can support something like 20 undead units, if you research the T5 Shadow tome, then the cap will be removed.

people like you are why necromancy gets shafted in every game.
cant you just let necromancy be fun for once?

[Moo]

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:

people like you are why necromancy gets shafted in every game.
cant you just let necromancy be fun for once?

Can you point out which suggestions I made would shaft Necromancy?