I Hate toll of seasons, & have issues with infestations, and free cities

[LordxDemi]

As the title says.

bit of background.
bought this game very recently, which i'd been grappling with doing for months.
i don't play games to compete, but to immerse myself in different worlds.

which means generally picking the stuff i enjoy, rather than what is actually good. with some of the abilites i love for flavour, i've seen they've basically been turned to trash due to nerfing... (there's also a surprisingly limited variety of abilities for the heroes character...
you can't even get most of the abilities utilized by race units, which sucks.)

i can see this game, like most other strategy games, etc, is aimed at that competitive player audience, hence my reluctance. but, all round, i've been enjoying it.

now, onto the issues.
[-----------------------------------
Toll of Seasons.
let me toggle this OFF. if someone can point to a mod that disables this, i would appreciate it.

i REALLY don't like toll of seasons. it clashes with my fantasy world, and is insanely hard for a new player like me playing on normal everything. i WANT "happenings" to make the world feel interesting & alive, with unique circumstances, and events. i DON'T want to be exterminated garanteed on turn 40-60!!! without fail(EVERY GAME, it's NOT random). so allowing toggles for specific "happenings" feels like a must. this will be a THEME for this post.


i beat it the first 2-3 games played(on 1, i bothered going through the entire quest...), but it has killed the other 5-6 others.
in the first games i loaded up on heroes(love leveling, customizing, and adventuring with them.), later 1's, i've only gone with 3 from my race, as i want to save the rest for a diverse cast of characters.

i'm playing as a champion, and when my king dies, i count that as game over. afterwards, it's very hard for me to invest myself in that "match".


now, with toll of seasons, this plays out 1 of 2 ways for all of the recent games i've played.
A)
turn 40-50 it activates, wipes out 1-2 ai capitals & by turn 60-70, it finds it's way to me with it's doomstack, backed up by another full stack of fodder, with 2000-3300 unit score(correct my terminology..)

b)
it comes after me first with a single 6 unit army, or 6+2, 6+4, still a doomstack with 2 scourge of winters, and either a reaper, or other groups of units with the boring death magic abilities from D&D(toggleable tomes would be nice aswell. there are alot of abilities which clash with my fantasy worlds).

i've tried auto resolving just so i can skip this hated battle event.. but, that somehow plays WORSE than a beginner... usually killing 1-2 of their fodder, even with 500-800 over theirs on the unit score.

i usually quit when i lose the battle, or, if i'm off doing anything else, when i see that my throne city is basically done for.

[-----------------------------------
infestations

on normal, they nearly all become "gold" by turn 40-60(haha, same as toll of seasons! fun!), and pretty much feature the same creatures, irrelevent of biome, location, climate, etc!
and changing the "difficulty" affects their activity, aswell as their "growth". so i can choose between a static world, where the wildlife does nothing... or 1 with nothing but trolls, giants, chaos demon monstrosities, & gods everywhere....

i guess this also bothers me for the point i put at the beginning. i want variety & immersion, with creatures in places that make sense. animals in packs, specific spots & biomes of extreme danger, with some more livable environments with fitting fauna.

not a "growing" challenge, where birds, gremlins, wolves, etc, magically transform into ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ giants, forest trolls, & dragons based on turn number.. or where bears are all buddy buddy with demons, elves, plants, and undead...

i also don't like that the setting affects BOTH independent factions AND infestations.

why can't they be seperate settings??
[-----------------------------------
free cities

this ones purely personal.

free cities aren't "players". i know it sounds silly, but i want them to organically grow, upgrade, fight, etc, like the ai players do.

i wish they could found new cities, conquer settlements, or even upgrade their own settlements tier, which from googling, i've found they intentionally didn't add to their ai.

if there are mods that add in that functionality, i'd appreciate it.

most other stuff, i'm sure i could look around, or build up the motivation to try modding myself, like i've somewhat done with CK3. found a mod that removes signature skill randomization, as an example, which i extremely hated.

but, after having another game ruined by toll of seasons, i wasted about 20 mins AGAIN looking how to get rid of it, before writing this.

[jagholin]

Toll of seasons is random and not guaranteed, unless your map has the specific trait. You simply weren't lucky.
If you don't have enough army by turn 50-60 to deal with it, you are developing way too slowly.
Also you can disable it (together with other happenings) in the advanced map settings.
Free cities do grow and can upgrade their tier with time, although I noticed they sometimes do it slowly.
Also free cities founding new cities is nonsense.

[originaljuke]

Toll of seasons can absolutely wreck your game, especially if you are playing on massive hard slow research maps. Since you noted you are open to mods, there is one called "Godhood", that turns your ruler and their current stack into incredibly massively overpowered beasts. It shows up as a learnable skill in your hero skills, which means if/when toll of seasons happens and it's earlier than you can survive, you can choose to have your leader become OP, then reset your skills to those suited to an enjoyable playthrough. You can make it immersive (I do sometimes) by only allowing your ruler to use it in their own domain, or for a short duration of turns before you reset their skills, like in stories where the hero/leader has to channel overwhelming power but can only do it for limited time. However you want. Good luck, hope that's helpful.

Infestations for me are affected by realm traits chosen at start of game. undead mostly, lots of dragons, more beasts and nature, lots of giants. there are options to pick through. doesn't mean all infestations are that theme, but gives them the majority.

[LordxDemi]

Originally posted by jagholin:

If you don't have enough army by turn 50-60 to deal with it, you are developing way too slowly.

true. i'm not good at this game, as i've stated... as i said, the event is clearly not new player friendly.... even on the default "normal" settings.

Originally posted by jagholin:

you can disable it (together with other happenings) in the advanced map settings.

yep, i know. but i want things to "happen". i want to disable specifically toll of seasons, because i don't like it. most other events are fine with me(some others i find don't mesh too well with my world.).

Originally posted by jagholin:

Free cities do grow and can upgrade their tier with time, although I noticed they sometimes do it slowly.
Also free cities founding new cities is nonsense.

didn't know they could grow in tier.
when googling around, i saw a developer specifically stating on a "bug" report about that issue, that free cities weren't advancing, that they intentionally disabled them from doing it, because they didn't want them like players.

with the last point, i don't know what you mean "nonsense." if you think it's nonsense that i want free cities to be more immersive, dynamic, emergent & believable, like little counties, city-states, dukedoms, kingdoms, with goverments, or leaders who fight for fertile lands & resources for their people, or megalomaniacs seeking domination, rememberance, and power by conquest & subjugation etc.
rather than a static gameplay entity that exists to be exploited, then you probably missed the part where i said i don't play games to "win", or "compete".

i'm not looking for the "satisfaction" of beating the AI, or other players in casual matches, proving i'm the best, and boosting my ranks, while looking up on the new "strats" following the current meta's, that come with the broken balancing, and hard nerfing.

not looking for league of legends, rocket league, DOTA, warframe, age of- ensemble games, overwatch, mobile games, etc. where you pump out for minutes to a few hours for that dopamine hit of being "better".

i don't care about being "good" at a game.
if i want to compete at something, i'll start back up at boxing, or mma classes, and spar people.. which is vastly more satisfying than finishing a match, losing all your progress, and doing the same ♥♥♥♥ again, but more "optimized".

as i stated in the post. i know this game, among most other strategy games are designed for the competitive scene,

i'm not that kind of player.

[LordxDemi]

first, thank you for the genuine reply. i know my post was very long & frankly i was very defeated, and angry when i wrote it.

and, i appreciate the solution you sent.
i've found a console command "IAMGOD" which allows you to auto win resolves, supposedly. i found that before making my post.
but, after wasting 5 turns blowing all my gold on insta training expensive units, and having the seasons ♥♥♥♥ up other AI teams, i decided the game was dead, and gave up/deleted the session.

Originally posted by originaljuke:

Infestations for me are affected by realm traits chosen at start of game. undead mostly, lots of dragons, more beasts and nature, lots of giants. there are options to pick through. doesn't mean all infestations are that theme, but gives them the majority.

the realm traits i choose are.
[-----------------------------------------
continents/islands
scorched climate
wildlands

massive underground
no free cities
regenerating infestations
unlimited power/volcanic eruptions(want both..)
-------------------------------------------]
i also have all victory conditions disabled, everything on normal, very large map, & 9 players, as that's the maximum on size & players.

the idea i had behind it was something similar to "the great dying", or a volcanic apocalypse turning everything into a toxic wasteland, with dead oceans, nearly lifeless land, lava flows, with ashen scapes, & mineral deposits over the surface(sadly, i can't combine the traits, or customize further).

i wanted a more grounded game, without all the astral nonsense(including without a fair few of the books. don't want insta-death magic, "order", or other forms of intangibles without explanation.), with all the different races to disperse, "evolve"(racial transformations, and new abilities!!!!) & try to survive in this hostile environment, with limited resources, where the habitable, green areas have fairly recognizable life, and the more harsh ones having stranger, more specialized & adapted fauna.

unfortunately, irrelevent of whether it is an umbral rift(which usually has 1 umbral creature, with the below), great birds nest, or other, and whatever biome or climate it's in, it always has the same combinations of:
karagh
phoenix
ice spider matriarch(lol, in an ashen wasteland, desert, or jungle!!)
swamp troll(both in silver & gold nests. if gold, it usually has 1-2 of above + this troll)
white wolf
caustic worm
river troll
spirit wolf
thunderbird
brewer ogre
butcher ogre
various spiders
birds/crows
wolves
inferno hounds
wyvern/wyrm evolving hatchlings
etc.

they all seem to be in the same armies, even though they clearly aren't natural friends.

in what world are dinosaurs(birds) & reptiles, friends with invertebrates, worms, and wolves?

why are wolves, worms, ogres, inferno hounds, and creepy crawlies in the ocean on boats???(i know the boats are a mechanic for creatures that can't effectively traverse water) in "pirate coves".

there's no thematic immersion or believabilty at all.

and, as i complained above, the whole world "evolves". with dogs turning into spiders, and ogres turning into phoenix's & karaghs.

i wish instead, i could have those 'themed" environments, where they slowly change/spread/grow overtime from adjacent climates & biomes. similar system to "worldbox".

if there's mods that can do that, i would appreciate it. i tried forming world trait, and it was just a random, nonsensical mess, where any biomes could be anywhere... tropical environments next to snow. jungles & swamps next to deserts, etc.

which clashed horribly with the lava lakes trait i had initially, before changing over time continents & islands.

[TriumphJordi]

Just going to comment on the Infestations thing. You choose the Wildlands Realm Trait which heavily weights the Units on the map to be Animals. This overwrites the usual thematic stacks that you would encounter and, since the pool is smaller, when the world difficulty increases you will notice larger differences in the defending units.

In general though, it sounds like the experience you are looking for is not something Age of Wonders will be able to provide. Or at least not without massive concessions.

[LordxDemi]

Originally posted by TriumphJordi:

Wildlands Realm Trait which heavily weights the Units on the map to be Animals. This overwrites the usual thematic stacks that you would encounter and, since the pool is smaller, when the world difficulty increases you will notice larger differences in the defending units.

I appreciate the response, and i can understand, as a game that probably focuses more heavily on ancient civilized structures & society, over nature & ecology, i am probably being far too harsh.

i have seen that there are fairly limited unit types for animals.

Originally posted by TriumphJordi:

In general though, it sounds like the experience you are looking for is not something Age of Wonders will be able to provide. Or at least not without massive concessions.

i can respect this aswell, and as i've said, i can see that is not what you guys are targetting.

although, i would still like to see more game creation customization, such as disabling specific events, tomes, etc, seperate options for agression & growth, infestations & free cities, etc.

I have a couple questions, if you have time.
i'm sure you guys are fairly busy, so i'm not holding out hope for a response.


1. are free cities AI/capabilities hardcoded? if not, what are some broad limits?
haven't looked too deeply at the mods, but wondering if more functionality could be
added, if someone were willing to script it. as an example, would it be possible to
script in ai behaviours for founding more cities, even if they themselves become an
independent entity, rather than a "vassal"/settlement under the creator.

another part of this, which ties in heavily with question 4, would be the control/ability
of modding events/happenings in relation to free cities.

2. is infestation generation hardcoded? as above, what are general limits? could i say, write a script for spawners based on province terrain types, including their growth stages?
similar to above, i'm just wondering what sort of freedom there is here. would it be
possible, for example, to create a "wolf den", that generates only wolves, and only in
forest/arctic climates, and alter/remove "growth" states, etc.

3. what are the limitations on races/cultures modding? could i say, create a race that only spawns animal(or more specific sorts) units, and has limited/no access to tomes, etc?
if this is possible, i could potentially completely skip out on utilizing infestations all
together, and just make 1 or more of the players as the infestation generators.
which, with the mechanics would be able to found more "nests", and
limiting their army creation by requiring them to place province improvements that
are tied to specific terrain types, which unlock animal units. in that "nest".

e.g. ash/lava den being a requirement for the wolf "player", to create inferno hounds
4. can you mod/create "happenings" & other storied events? and, what limits are on those?
i've downloaded a wonders mod that supposedly adds more variants to the wonders'
events, as an example. so i have to assume that modding those is a possibility. but,
could i edit an event that, as an example, that completely destroys an entire city, &
"terraforms" the provinces into lava lakes, etc.

5. is terraforming of water/lava/bedrock terrain possible with modding? and could modding allow mountain formation?
will be exploring mods more to see what is out there. i haven't dived deep into the
modding scene of this game yet, as i have with a good portion of the other games
i've played.

[flintfakeer]

If you want free cities to act like ai players, why not just turn off free cities and increase the number of ai players?

The free cities are meant to be little city states that lack the manpower, basic resources, and leadership to be powers in their own right. In this game literally every ruler is a god or is most of the way there. This is why you can resurrect the dead, why you can twist your species with transformations and enchantments, and why your ruler is able to reincarnate.

The free cities are godless and thus largely only useful for what little strategic advantage they can provide. They are merely mortal in a land where gods war.

Note, I play almost exclusively permadeath. This game has both a very good reason for death not being permanent and, more importantly to me, gives weight to losing your leader beyond just a minor resource penalty or having to reload a save. Death is actually relevant beyond being a slight annoyance and waste of time. As such, this is one of the few games I play with rpg elements where dying isn't intensely immersion breaking.

I can be a literal crystal dragon Jesus, or The Highlander, or Daemon prince Angron, and the games mechanics and lore blend perfectly with such leaders. Being a mortal leader in this game is substantially less immersive sadly. Would be pretty neat as a society trait though.

Maybe something like "Mortal Supremacists: [EXP boost, No resurrection, Dead leader = surrender, Cheaper heroes, Free city relations boost, Can Uplift Vassal free city to Ai player status instead of integrating"

[Typha]

Originally posted by jagholin:

Toll of seasons is random and not guaranteed, unless your map has the specific trait. You simply weren't lucky.
If you don't have enough army by turn 50-60 to deal with it, you are developing way too slowly.
Also you can disable it (together with other happenings) in the advanced map settings.
Free cities do grow and can upgrade their tier with time, although I noticed they sometimes do it slowly.
Also free cities founding new cities is nonsense.

On turn 90, Toll sent...

THREE Summer Scourges + Two Transmuters + something else
6 more units
6 more units


I threw my entire empire at them and was wiped, killing almost nothing.

It wrecked my game that I was doing fine in and having fun in.

Devs, please allow us to fully and clearly toggle off Toll of Seasons. Thanks.

[Typha]

Originally posted by TriumphJordi:

Just going to comment on the Infestations thing. You choose the Wildlands Realm Trait which heavily weights the Units on the map to be Animals. This overwrites the usual thematic stacks that you would encounter and, since the pool is smaller, when the world difficulty increases you will notice larger differences in the defending units.

In general though, it sounds like the experience you are looking for is not something Age of Wonders will be able to provide. Or at least not without massive concessions.

Personally I love this game and the experience it provides.

I greatly dislike Toll of Seasons, as do many of your customers I speak with. Over on the discord there are requests to turn it off or at least tone it down. Lots of people find random "welp, game over for you" to be seriously un-fun.

More than that, AI empires don't know how to deal with toll. They stand there with an underpowered army containing their rules as it crushes their capital, knocking them out of the game. It really messes up the flow of the game when that happens, empires just randomly being erased because of bad AI.

It's just bad game design in so many people's opinions, and I know it would take someone about 10 minutes of work (tops) to give us the option to toggle Toll off. I think it's a pretty reasonable feature request. Thanks for listening!

[Pantagruel]

Even without toll of seasons, high world threat has a tendency to turn into "fighting the map" rather than "fighting the other Godir", and toll of seasons definitely kicks it up a notch.

[The Big Brzezinski]

Originally posted by Typha Latifolia:

On turn 90, Toll sent...

THREE Summer Scourges + Two Transmuters + something else
6 more units
6 more units


I threw my entire empire at them and was wiped, killing almost nothing.

It wrecked my game that I was doing fine in and having fun in.

Devs, please allow us to fully and clearly toggle off Toll of Seasons. Thanks.

By turn 90, you should be able to throw whole armies at them back to back, plus another doom stack in reserve for clearing out the nest.

The Toll are vermin. They are beneath you. Kill them. Demonstrate how stupid it was for them to challenge you.

[LordxDemi]

Originally posted by flintfakeer:

....

sorry for late reply. my provider decided i was subletting or some nonsense(i live alone lol. i ain't selling ♥♥♥♥!) and cut me off.

i agree that the game has it's lore or whatever. but, i'm a stubborn, stupid person, who hates aspects/large portions of most fantasy, and was seeking to customize something more my own.

i.e. no astral plane, no respawning characters, no ♥♥♥♥ you/unimmersive gamey abilities(insta kills, the entirety of the umbral host of powers, which are frankly BS, no tome of severing, no "morale" or "boon" stealing..)etc.

the game also has the 9 player limit(seen people talking 12??), each with gods ruling them, which partially kills the idea of competing with mortal contenders. i am a huge fan of CK3. and i personally modded in abilites to allow me to play as a god king. sadly, my modding ability is pretty poor, and atm, i'm too lazy to do visual modding. i also like the immersive battles, city building, etc in this. with a dynamic map.

for free city states, there's alot i can say. but i'll just say i disagree. i think history has shown that ambition, progress, growth, and conquest have always won out, regardless of the success of such campaigns.

i do like alot of your ideas on the mortal ruler though.

[LordxDemi]

Originally posted by The Big Brzezinski:

By turn 90, you should be able to throw whole armies at them back to back, plus another doom stack in reserve for clearing out the nest.

The Toll are vermin. They are beneath you. Kill them. Demonstrate how stupid it was for them to challenge you.

i really don't know why you replied with this.
the guys saying it isn't fun for him, and many others, and your reply is either, "get gud", or, nah... they're easy, crush them.

this doesn't at all address the issue, and at worst, it's just dismissive and crappy.

[XxMaximusxX]

Check out a mod called "Kaige more realm traits" it has some things you might enjoy like affinity-specific realms with special modifiers, a "wetlands" environment, more specific types of infestation spawning, etc.