Original leaders feel weak now

[Sneaking viper]

After the newest DLC, the 2 original leader types appears very weak. While I know there are some artifacts that can deal with some of their counters, it is artifacts that are needed to be found first. Why would anyone play a non Eldritch leader? Sure they cannot use boots or melee weapons, but does that really matter, when you as a base does twice the damage in melee as most lvl 1 weapons plus you can mind control enemies.
Is it just me or are the original leader types more useless than ever?

[Flushing]

Right now, ES feels very strong, not for single target dps, but because they have the largest bag of unique tricks, in never ending supply.

As many have said, as ES, you can only afford to level your ES skills but what on earth would compell you to do anything else?.

You start strong, like Dragon Lord, and sure, it doesn't take much for Wizard Kings or Champions to outpace your damage as soon as a T3-T4 weapon drops. But, you can get near the same utility by recruiting heroes.

You don't get that same utility from any unit but ES, which is what makes them so strong.

Dragon Lord is not such a great comparison because you can get the same functionality from other units in the game, they feel like an extra Mythic unit and can be outclassed by well geared/enchanted Champions and Wizard Kings.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by Pantagruel:

Dragon Lord keeps the cosmetic effects of their signature skills, but they don't do anything until you hit the correct level.

Ah I see, but does that mean they get to keep their types like Plant or Undead in the process of keeping Cosmetic changes? If so that would be the downside in the case of Sovereign, because again they don't have any sort of Type mechanic like Champs, WKs or Dragons that give them passive buffs.

Unless you count and allow ES to retain the passive parts of signature skills 4 and 12, or just the Non-Forgotten Tomes signature skills period, which I guess makes sense in relation to what Bratty Doe said about them possibly taking away access to Forgotten spells on a new game. :)

[Flushing]

If you were going to ascend a Wizard King to Pantheon to use ascended traits in future skirmishes, What racial transformations do you think would be most helpful to stack on the leader unit?

[aclyte]

They can feel weak, but they do not.

Champion have big economy and relation bonuses. They are good for vassalizing cities and getting a lot of money. Plus it's "typical" hero with full equipment - you can make him powerhouse with right build and equipment OR good support guy. Also he costs nothing.

Wizard king have huge magic bonuses (especially double casting (idk maybe devs nerfed it as OP stuff)). He also good hero with full equipment. And he costs nothing.

Dragon is great fighter but he have no economy bonuses and costs gold every turn. Yes, he have hoard mechanics but, as a result, you cannot forge items (because you d't want to disenchant any).

And new Eldritch leader. His attacks are not so powerful and too relying on luck with his skills. Also he costs mana. His economy bonus skill and forgotten tomes are very strong indeed but that's it.

As a result, imo, leaders are mostly balanced.
Champion - economy
Wizard - magic
Dragon - fighter
Eldritch leader - crowd control

[Cindeerella]

Originally posted by aclyte:

They can feel weak, but they do not.

Champion have big economy and relation bonuses. They are good for vassalizing cities and getting a lot of money. Plus it's "typical" hero with full equipment - you can make him powerhouse with right build and equipment OR good support guy. Also he costs nothing.

Champion - economy
Wizard - magic
Dragon - fighter
Eldritch leader - crowd control

I’d correct you a bit, champion is completely underdog and inferior in everything to Wizard king. His economy bonuses are a stupid joke (only to throne city? Really?), draft is meh, stability is meh (just assign whispering stone to your throne for few turns) and gold is super small bonus compared to WK casting points or mana income multiplier and especially casting points because those make game super easier when you wait only 3 turns to cast Major racial transformations insted of 7 or 8 turns. At this point Dragon ruler is far superior economy booster with his Ancient Governor perk… And Eldritch leader aswell with Imperium income + actually much better for vassal builds because they can instantly end war with free cities by using thralls. So champion is just super handicapped WK with only benefit is option to use culture appropriate outfits (for high is all high armor sets and few white gowns for female body type).

Also I’d rather reconsider your summary points:
1) WK - magic economy boosts + warfare skill line late game hero.
2) Dragon - strong early game + magic skill line late game hero.
3) Eldritch - insanity-exploiting early game, super Imperium boost, a lot of debuffs-DoTs in late game (He doesn’t have actually a lot of CC, in fact almost non good CC in late game, spending entire turn trying to put insanity on one/maybe two units is weak when infectious insanity can do so much more in one cast. At this point Shadow, Materium or Astral Dragon with 15+ hexes AoE stun, freeze or gilding laughs hard at this)
4) Champion - just warfare skill line late game hero.

P.S. Jordi in discord was saying that Eldritch ruler should work similary to Dragon ruler when ascended, so keep lvl 4 and 12 signatures (I honestly don’t exactly understand how, because while dragon has those aren’t working at full force, they provide more harm than benefits if you have final transformation with very bad resistances like Astral one, and doesn’t affect breath at all which is the only thing those transformations worth something)

[MrButtermancer]

Originally posted by Aurumworks:

What you are gaining with personal strength from the new leader types, you are losing in economy.

While I think this would be a good argument if it were true, the Eldritch Sovereign does have a perk set that gives you like 30 casting points and TEN IMPERIUM very early in the game.

A Wizard King won't even break even with that until level 12. And if you count the imperium, and you should, that's not even really breaking even.

You can make an argument Overchannel allows for some shenanigans, and late game it certainly does. But the mind control is so insanely good for early camps I don't think I buy that, either.

Champion is a little harder to evaluate. The gold is very impactful, and after rank-up has been massively buffed, the XP increase is also not to be sneezed at. I'm still not sold the Imperium income isn't better though.

This is not as clear cut as "the older ruler types give economic advantages the new ones don't." The ES definitely does. I haven't played dragon enough to form much of an opinion, but I strongly suspect the hoard mechanic can be broken, though it won't be as early as ES comes online.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by Bratty Doe:

P.S. Jordi in discord was saying that Eldritch ruler should work similary to Dragon ruler when ascended, so keep lvl 4 and 12 signatures (I honestly don’t exactly understand how, because while dragon has those aren’t working at full force, they provide more harm than benefits if you have final transformation with very bad resistances like Astral one, and doesn’t affect breath at all which is the only thing those transformations worth something)

Thanks for the clarification and I have a better understanding of what they plan to do.

I'm betting he means it's going to work exactly the same way. Keep the passive modifiers on those ES signature skills, but lock out the abilities they give (for the most part because they're offensive in nature even the passives).

So for Signature skills at level 4 the passive retention would likely be:

Madcaster
Expert Channeling: -30% mana cost of Army, Damage and Debuff spells.

Mindbreaker
Eldritch Breach: Bypasses up to 3 Status Resistance the target has.

Fleshweave
At combat start, summon 2 Fleshlings.

*The flesh ones are probably going to keep summons as they're more passive in nature compared to he other ability*

At level 12 it's:

Madcaster-->Combat Caster
Savant Channeling: Forgotten Tome spells do 25% more damage.

Madcaster-->Havok Caster
Chaos Channeleing: Damage spells have a 90% chance to cause a negative condition.

Mindbreaker-->Enthraller
Manipulator: Default ability Eldritch Mind Control, Hero skill Delerium and Hero skill Desperate Measures all target an additional unit within 3 hexes.

Mindbreaker-->Mind Devour
Mind Rend: 70% more damage vs. targets with Madness, Insanity, Despair, Berserk and other mental mind effects.

Fleshweave-->Fleshsculptor
Fleshsculpt: 2 Fleshlings become a Flesh Abomination

Fleshweave-->Puppeteer
Puppeteer's domination: Changes default Mind Control ability to 120% base chance to Dominate for 3 turns. On success reduces target Action Points to 1 for 1 turn.

That wouldn't be bad at all if this is what Jordi meant. Having "everything" from those Signature skills would definitely be too much in comparison with Dragon Lord. That said, I already believe that Dragons get the short end of the stick unfairly because of an over estimation of their martial prowess, in relation to what Pantheon Ascension bonuses they should keep.

Champs and WKs have the ability to become godly Godir powerhouses and can stack every minor Transform in the game if they wanted to. I have an Ascended WK from my early Grexolis run post release with that going on, and he's a beast stat wise on turn one compared to a Dragon Lord (defensively, but still great offensively and all the mana/spll bonuses).

Essentially ES Ascension would be in between Dragon Lord at low and Champ/WK Ascension, due to all the Transformation stacking they can do. The thing Sovereign will have over everyone is offensive Ascension power rather than dfensive transformations and types. They also have their Magical Origin type as a base which helps in most cases.


// On Astral Dragon Transforms:


The Astral Dragon Transformation type is Ethereal which is actually a very good. Except when it comes to Type exploitation with spells, which isn't really a thing early game anyways.

Ethereal's downside is only -4 Lightning Resistance (so basically 0 damage reduction vs Lightning compared to around 37-40ish% reduction, because Lord starts with 4 Resistance). Most if not all base Major Transformations have a -2 to -4 resist modifier(s) on them major transformation and Astral builds can rectify all of this with basically Staves of Warding. Especially a Draogn that will be the main target of heals etc.

So -4 Lightning Resist for:

- +2 Defense (Dragon early game is going to take a lot of physical damage, Dragon starts with 4 and goes up to 6 which is like another 16-20% physical damage reduction. 6+ defence is when it starts to have diminishing returns to keep stacking).

- Pass Through (Not useful to a Dragon since they're Flying and can already pass through obstackles).

- Immunity to Bleed (4 damage per stack), Diseased (-4 to all resistances, % chance spreads to other units at the end of turn), immobilized, and poison (4 blight damage per stack). All super annoying status effects and very common in the game.


// On Camps (especially) and WKs needing better signature skill reworks:

I think Champions should at least get some similar features as ES does for converting/negotiating with Free Cities/Vassals. Maybe 4 Unique signature skills added to the list that you can take instead of Affinity based signature skills. Or just make some special innate reactivity features like the ES has for Champ, WK and Dragon Lord, with Champ getting the most powerful ones to balance them out.

[.Master Jiren, The Strongest]

ES feels so strong that I actually prefer playing battles instead of autoresolve, this is what I thought Dragon Lord should've been. But this isn't that surprising, all games that release updates always release stronger and stronger characters as time goes on. Just imagine how strong the next one will be, thats just the nature of game updates.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:

ES feels so strong that I actually prefer playing battles instead of autoresolve, this is what I thought Dragon Lord should've been. But this isn't that surprising, all games that release updates always release stronger and stronger characters as time goes on. Just imagine how strong the next one will be, thats just the nature of game updates.

POWER CREEP! :p :P

[Sverd]

After playing a dragon and an eldritch sovreign run, I agree. I like this level of power for the ruler, but wizard kings and champions need to be brought up to the same level for sure. The thing is, with a Dragon or ES...

Originally posted by Aurumworks:

What you are gaining with personal strength from the new leader types, you are losing in economy.

... You don't feel these losses at all because your ruler can go and wipe up the map with far greater speed and ease than a wimpy human, bringing in tons of cash. Obscene amounts for chaos followers.

[Pantagruel]

ES, somewhat like dragon lords, have mediocre gear scaling (sure, you can craft a tier 4 weapon for them... but how often do you actually use your base attack?), their army support tools are fairly limited (no mass rejuvenation or mana unchained), and they don't benefit from racial transforms. I think their greatest strength is diversity -- champion provides almost nothing that you can't get by just hiring a hero (just a small economic benefit), WK does provide overchannel and casting points (which you can also get as an ES), but the features provided by an ES have no convenient alternate source.

[chi]

How is noone mentioning that due to the ES not being transformable and not allowed a mount or legs you're working with 32 movement unless you spend thrall + casting points every single turn?
And that's for a hero that does not have the +3 def +3 res + tons of other gimics from transformations, even compared with an umbral demon or naga transformed hero, that loses the same slots but at least gets 40 movement out of that deal. (i.e. does not slow down my army)

[Cindeerella]

Originally posted by chi:

How is noone mentioning that due to the ES not being transformable and not allowed a mount or legs you're working with 32 movement unless you spend thrall + casting points every single turn?
And that's for a hero that does not have the +3 def +3 res + tons of other gimics from transformations, even compared with an umbral demon or naga transformed hero, that loses the same slots but at least gets 40 movement out of that deal. (i.e. does not slow down my army)

You can give your race athletics racisl trait and you ruler will be 40 ms. You also can use Astral t5 tome enchantment to boost them even further.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by Bratty Doe:

Originally posted by chi:

How is noone mentioning that due to the ES not being transformable and not allowed a mount or legs you're working with 32 movement unless you spend thrall + casting points every single turn?
And that's for a hero that does not have the +3 def +3 res + tons of other gimics from transformations, even compared with an umbral demon or naga transformed hero, that loses the same slots but at least gets 40 movement out of that deal. (i.e. does not slow down my army)

You can give your race athletics racisl trait and you ruler will be 40 ms. You also can use Astral t5 tome enchantment to boost them even further.

This, but also there's also Eldritch Phase to rectify movement issues in combat at least. Phase 1 is good enough and is pretty much a must, due to all the Full Action abilities all over the place.

I find for the World Map 32 movement while floating is good enough to get around fast enough (only mountains I believe reduce their movement from 5 Movement points to 8). It tends to translate into pseudo 40 land movement when paired with 40 movement non floating units when they run into unfavourable terrain and thus is all equals out in the end (maybe 1 hex here and there give or take).

Remember though none of the above Wold Map issues matter later especially for the floating ES by default.

Mid-late game all builds gain access to the General Affinity Tree Trait "Advanced Logistics," All units take 3 movement to move on roads sure, but more importantly ALL UNITS are upgraded to Very Fast Movement Speed and Fast Embark.

So our Eldritch Sovereigns in mid to late game before getting Siege upgrade and Teleporters, become 48 speed Fast Movement floating units on the World Map no matter what your build is. (Edit: I checked a late game ES to make sure)

Also I have issues with using Athletics for any build that will gain racial Flying or some other form of universal Fast Movement (like Naga Form or Gloom Striders). I would much rather use those 3 point's on picking up a good 2 point trait + a good 1 point trait like elusive or Hardy (rather than picking up Athletics just for my ES). :) :)

//

Itemization for ES is good enough and isn't really hurt by missing feet and mount slots.
The Slippery trait would be nice from footwear forging for ES though and the extra resistances. Keep in mind however that ES already has Magical Origin AND I just noticed now, Ethereal by default too. I and others were wrong to say ES has no type other than Magical Origin. So all Eldritch Sovereign's have in addition to being Magical Origin:

- +2 Defense (Makes up for any defence buff from feewear. (6 base Defence as opposed to 3 for 41% damage reduction).
- -4 Lightning Resist (an ouchie that takes an itemization slot to fix or Faction build to propgate Bolstered Resistances.
- Pass Through (Another modifier you can get from Feet, but ES starts with that allows you to go through obstacles like a Flying unit).
- Immunity to Bleed (No bleed dot stacks), Diseased (Can't get debuffed with -4 to resistance), Immobilized (Great) and Poison (No DoT Poison stacks from this which is super common).

Basically ES' are the Leader version of your average non-Phantasmal Warrior astral magical origin ethereal unit.

[KellyR]

TBH, the casting point scaling that Wizard Kings get is incredibly strong and makes them worth it all on its own, even against the new types.