Turns out that this whole Umbral Abyss thing is no fun.

[Frogshackle]

I already find surface spawns of monsters to be a bit of a pain in the ass since the AI typically does NOTHING about them (allowing them to evolve into outrageous nonsense) and they primarily target the human player for "reasons" (I've watched infestations target me from the opposite side of the map and pass peacefully by every AI on the way) and so now the Umbral Abyss is just more of that but on steroids. I waste 90% of my time dealing with random, spawning BS rather than my actual enemies and that kind of whack-a-mole is absolutely devoid of fun.

So, sure, I can toggle off the abyss layer (and I will, going forward) but now I regret bothering with a DLC that is mostly centered on a feature that I strongly dislike. Oh well...

[Flushing]

Postat inițial de se05239:

I can't say I like the Umbral spread. I'd be fine if it was just debuffs but the health drain and everything else on top of that is just not fun to me.

If you opt to play with it, why not take the racial transformation as a society trait, or research into it?

[Flushing]

Postat inițial de Midas:

I think it's great. It's like a dungeon layer you can explore for treasure.

Yes it is Midas. As always, your opinion is the most valuable on the steam forums.

[KellyR]

I have to say, after playing a couple games with the Umbral Abyss on, I probably won't again. I like the idea of another layer to the map and all, but the Umbral enemies are just really annoying to fight. And I mean annoying, not difficult. All of them having Curse Eater nullifies entire playstyles against them. I can still beat them reliably but it's not fun for my status-effect centric necromancer faction for instance, to have all their best tricks nullified. It turns into a really boring slog to fight them all the time, and they're constantly sending out war parties, so it takes over like 2/3 of the gameplay.

[Anzuvere]

I'm a pretty mediocre 4X player and as far as might and magic type games my only real experience was III back on release. Originally I couldn't physically play this game because the developers don't want to develop for certain hardware so this is my first time getting to play the game in genuine and I have to say I haven't had any problems with it so far. Most of the games I'm playing solo or with my partner in a 2v3 game and there's usually a point around turn 30 where I end up having to fend of a couple waves of invaders and then I tend to just go around and crush all of the infestations with malady resistance. By the time I run into the AI they usually get completely DESTROYED by the umbral malady and... I really enjoy spreading it personally hehehe.

[BigRockWall]

From what I've observed so far (YMMV) the AI doesn't handle gloom well. You can use the gloom generator tile improvements offensively, as the AI tends to just move out of gloom tiles as soon as it spreads, with no regard for the consequences of doing so.

As to the OP the actual umbral abyss layer I agree is basically garbage. The only positive aspect of it existing is it gives non umbral trait factions access to gloom immunity via diplomacy with the umbral realm free city, offering some counter play to what i described above being used against you.

[Midas]

Postat inițial de Max Wax:

Postat inițial de Midas:

Then... why would you even pick it if you don't want to interact with it? The whole point of it is the gameplay and playstyle opportunities it creates through interacting with it. It's like having a water-heavy realm and refusing to pick up basic seafaring. Or having massive underground and refusing to pick up excavation. Or picking respawning infestations and not wanting to fight infestations.

I don't take Seafaring because I expect water on the map and excavation is just an option on the Empire Tree - it does not determine your whole game. You see Umbral as an on/off feature. I've been seeing it more as a part of the Lore thing - something like the Underground - it's always there as a part of world and map building; I like to explore the Underground for resources, but I'm not forced to deal with it. So I'd like Umbral to be more like that: an inalienable part of the Lore and maps but with a flexibility how I want to approach it or ignore it. That's my point.

As a solution I'd limit the amount of entrances to the Umbral layer. If I need it, I'll seek it.

That would seriously hinder its value. A big part of the umbral layer is that it lets you jump around the map and find alternate routes to places. Fewer entrances would mean fewer exits. Maybe it needs its own setting to limit how far it can spread into the overworld for players who don't want to use it, but again, I don't see why they'd even have it selected as a realm trait if they don't want to use it.

One thing I could see happening would be something more like the voidbringer invasion, where it's an event that happens after a certain number of turns, and the gates start progressively opening.

[Imagine]

eh that doesnt bother me, what bothers me is the permanent gates and gloom that make whole sections of the map cancerous dead zones for anyone without the trait. you overexaggerate, im 100+ turns in and they definitely dont divebomb like you're describing. they even stopped pillaging...which i think is a bug? if not its a major game change, i havent seen a single unit try to pillage any of my province since the update as far as i can remember.

Postat inițial de Malaficus Shaikan:

Yeah pretty much.
The more you play this game the more you learn it is everything vs player.
Not just ai vs player.
It is called fake difficulty.
So forget about using muarders or umbral against your enemies.
The ai isnt bothered by them.

speaking as someone who routinely uses incite revolution to dumpster the ai, you're beyond wrong.

[Lord Bubba]

Well, I'm getting on the "I don't like it either" band wagon. If only there was a way to destroy the entrance/exits.

[TyborPL]

IMHO there are too many entrances everywhere. The abyss should be reachable from underground only (at least at the begining). This would make the underground gameplay more interesting.

Ideally, I would also like to see fewer underground passages at the beginning of the map. Others should open up through random collapse of surface provinces over time.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Given my expeciance with it i find it too be a case of:
Too much effort.
Not enough reward.

Unless you have the devoties of urath culture trait the umbral realm does damage over time, and ruins your land as it spreads.
And for what?
Access to shadow dwellings that dont offer anything worthwhile?
Access to a random island with no way to tell where you end up?

On the other hand if you do have devoties of urath or suck up too the shadow Umbral demons.
You get the ability to get chaos corruption terrian that hurts your enemies and heals your troops.
I think(Not sure i havent played with umbral in a long time) the ability to open a shadow gate inside of enemy land is a nice way to hurt them.
But as i said.
It is a case of too much effort too little reward.
And unlike shadow magic you cannot settle the shadow umbral realm.
So it doesnt even allow me the joy of conquering hell.

[Sifer2]

Kind of necropost but I will say after spending more time playing it I agree the biggest problem with the Abyss is that is slowly ruins the surface layer without much ability to counter it if you decide not to side with the Demons. Feels like there should be a special province improvement you can make that wards off Umbral corruption, and slowly pushes it out of nearby provinces. I kind of get the feeling this system is incomplete here, and will be expanded on when the Archon DLC comes out. As then you will have two opposing forces.

[BoogieMan]

They need to stop with the kill the human player only mindset, it's it nonsensical and breaks immersion. Infestations and the like they should target the nearest city.

[DasaKamov]

Postat inițial de BoogieMan:

Infestations and the like they should target the nearest city.

Then you get the issue of the player just camping for 50-turns, waiting for infestations to weaken/wipe out their opponents, and mopping up the leftovers with minimal thought in the end.

[PXR5]

Postat inițial de DasaKamov:

Postat inițial de BoogieMan:

Infestations and the like they should target the nearest city.

Then you get the issue of the player just camping for 50-turns, waiting for infestations to weaken/wipe out their opponents, and mopping up the leftovers with minimal thought in the end.

So? Make a better AI. Being a magnet to everything is why I take huge breaks between maps.

[TirAsleen]

Postat inițial de Malaficus Shaikan:

snip

I'd argue Eldritch Sovereigns + that related society trait factions have their fun with the umbral realm, but if you are not one, sucks to be you.

I can only tell you, how shadow realm was treated in AoW2:SM.

It was always deactivated.

Deactivated in online pvp games

Deactivated in PBEM games.

Deactivated in SP map competitions.

No on talked about it either, because ------>deactivated.

Its nice, and looks a bit like an aquatic underwaterworld, but for kinda the same reasons, how this layer hurts most factions and players and even A.I.s its best to deactivate the thing.

I think its good for story realms and custom maps, though, i heard rumors custom maps will come back in AoW4 in S2?


Multiple pocket dimensions can be fun and add something to the game, if its done like in Conquest of Elysium 5.

But thats a simpler game than AoW4, you don't deal with building cities and bulidings, place SPIs, have terrain mechanics or even a tactical combat.

So its allowed to have more mechanics on the global map in multiple dimensions, each one comes with different set of mechanics do deal with, going to the plane of fire wasn't my best idea, my armies and heroes instantly burnt to death.

Hilarious fun, when a game is a bit *too* asymmetrical.