How does tome research work now?

[Blessed Heretic]

I think the majority of my frustration in the game currently is the new tome research system. I can't really wrap my head around it.

Before lower tier tomes were easy to research, but now it seems if i take a lower tier tome later, it's as expensive if not more so than a higher tier one?

I just need some guidance so I can figure out how to plot out my tome growth.

[utilityguy]

Yes. The Next tome you pick will always cost more technology to research than any tome you have picked previously, in the same game. Which means you will always need more science, forever.

[darkholyPL]

From the update notes:

Research Scaling

The way knowledge costs are determined for skills in Tomes has changed. Instead of the tier of the skill determining the cost, the knowledge cost is now based on the amount of Tomes you have collected so far. Every new Tome you unlock will have an increased knowledge cost of skills compared to the Tome before, regardless of what Tier the Tome or the skill is.

The general Knowledge cost of Tome skills is increased, especially near the mid and late game Tomes.
The base knowledge cost of skills for tomes are as follows:
1st Tome, General Research and Culture Research: 250
2nd Tome: 400
3rd Tome: 600
4th Tome: 800
5th Tome: 1100
6th Tome: 1500
7th Tome: 1900
8th Tome: 2400
9th Tome: 3000
10th Tome: 3600
11th Tome: 4300
12th Tome: 5000
Every Tome afterwards has an additional +1000 knowledge cost per skill.

Individual skills in a Tome now have a skill level (Adept, Intermediate or Expert). This adds a modifier on the knowledge cost. Different skills inside of a tome can still differ in cost as they did previously.
Changed Tome Tier unlocking. Instead of needing 2 tomes of the previous tier, you just need a certain number of tomes of any tier. This means that players can choose more lower level tomes without slowing down their progress towards higher level tomes.
Tier II - 2 Tomes of any Tier
Tier III - 4 Tomes of any Tier
Tier IV - 6 Tomes of any Tier
Tier V - 8 Tomes of any Tier

Tier 3 tomes now require 3 Affinity Points to be unlocked.

[Midas]

the tldr is basically every 'new' tome is going to be scaled close to if it were the tier you are expected to move to. No more cheap tomes that you can go back and fully research in a few turns.

[Balekai]

Which also means choose wisely, make sure you fill out your core build by Tome 9ish. Then start patching up the weaknesses with Tomes 10, 11 and 12 if the game lasts that long. Like filling out resistances due to certain transformations (like Steel Skin or Celestial) reducing them or some such. Or getting some tomes that add more utility, crit or AoE damage to your main offensive lineup(s).

[Blessed Heretic]

Hmm, sounds like it'll drastically change how I plan out my faction then.

[Midas]

Originally posted by Blessed Heretic:

Hmm, sounds like it'll drastically change how I plan out my faction then.

If you planned to have a bunch of low-tier tomes in addition to normal tome progression, yes, but as far as the normal progression goes (2 T1s, 2T2s, etc), it's functionally the same.

[MrButtermancer]

It doesn't work very well.

I fell off playing again shortly after the expansion dropped. The research scaling and greatly nerfed casting are definitely hard to enjoy.

[darkholyPL]

Originally posted by MrButtermancer:

It doesn't work very well.

I fell off playing again shortly after the expansion dropped. The research scaling and greatly nerfed casting are definitely hard to enjoy.

I dissagree.
I like it much better this way, than 'spam ALL the tomes!' lategame, we used to have.

[DesertRose92]

Wasn't research overall much faster before the research overhaul?
I remember with the old system I could reach Tier IV tomes within the first 30-40 turns without any exploits, Nowadays I am at my first or third Tier II tome at that point.

[Terrkas]

Originally posted by DesertRose92:

Wasn't research overall much faster before the research overhaul?
I remember with the old system I could reach Tier IV tomes within the first 30-40 turns without any exploits, Nowadays I am at my first or third Tier II tome at that point.

Yes, it got slowed down. Once i finished all the stuff i want to explore in the story realms, i will probably play with faster research. I modtly finished 5 or 6 player maps around my first t4 tome.

[TyborPL]

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

Originally posted by MrButtermancer:

It doesn't work very well.

I fell off playing again shortly after the expansion dropped. The research scaling and greatly nerfed casting are definitely hard to enjoy.

I dissagree.
I like it much better this way, than 'spam ALL the tomes!' lategame, we used to have.

Yes. It is way better now.

[Fendelphi]

A thing to consider. If you unlock a tome early, its "research" cost is set according to the time you unlocked it.
This means that mana can help speed up your research, by constantly shuffle your available research options from previous tomes(research cost stays the same as when you unlocked it).
Example: After you have unlocked a few research, you get to choose a second tome. All/most research from the second tome will be more expensive than any remaining research from the previous one. So if you have enough mana to shuffle, and you do not care "which" research you do(but simply want to progress as fast as possible through multiple tomes), you can spend mana to get all the cheap stuff.

Astral Imperium affinity has a perk where shuffling is cheaper, so that might be worth it, if you want as many tomes unlocked as possible.

[MrButtermancer]

Originally posted by darkholyPL:

Originally posted by MrButtermancer:

It doesn't work very well.

I fell off playing again shortly after the expansion dropped. The research scaling and greatly nerfed casting are definitely hard to enjoy.

I dissagree.
I like it much better this way, than 'spam ALL the tomes!' lategame, we used to have.

In the most aggressive research game I ever played, a game that lasted over a hundred turns, I completed less than half of the available tomes. This was before any DLC was released or the current substantial research nerfs were even implemented.

Nobody is researching ALL of the tomes unless they're exploiting a degenerate combo I haven't heard about, or their games are lasting 600 turns. If they're doing that it's their fault, period. But this is the thing that people keep saying.

The community is absolute ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ at estimating how many tomes they are actually affording in a given game, and always has been.

This is the same community that keeps parroting the bizarre complaint that the races don't have bespoke stat assignments, and therefore the game doesn't have races. So I don't think "what the community thinks about it" is a yardstick of great worth either.

[MrButtermancer]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

A thing to consider. If you unlock a tome early, its "research" cost is set according to the time you unlocked it.
This means that mana can help speed up your research, by constantly shuffle your available research options from previous tomes(research cost stays the same as when you unlocked it).
Example: After you have unlocked a few research, you get to choose a second tome. All/most research from the second tome will be more expensive than any remaining research from the previous one. So if you have enough mana to shuffle, and you do not care "which" research you do(but simply want to progress as fast as possible through multiple tomes), you can spend mana to get all the cheap stuff.

Astral Imperium affinity has a perk where shuffling is cheaper, so that might be worth it, if you want as many tomes unlocked as possible.

The reason this works makes sense, but from a game design standpoint definitely sticks out as a problem caused by a bad fix to a different problem.

[DesertRose92]

You could have 400-500 research at around turn 30 without exploits. That's enough to finish a low level Tome in a few turns with the old system.