Reaver Magelock Feels Weak

[jpw1991]

Hi there,

Just wanting to throw my thoughts out on the Reaver Magelocks. Although the aesthetic is brilliant and the sound of the unit shooting is the coolest thing ever, I find them awful to use.

Problem

They need to get relatively close to the enemy before being able to shoot, and cannot shoot after moving. So they're a sitting duck for an entire turn. Even after marking, they tend to miss. Often times this will mean no damage in battle or, worse, they just blow away your own units. Then they're completely helpless in melee.

All my battles with Magelocks have gone something like this:

1. Advance other units and throw nets etc. and try to immobilise and mark the enemy.
2. Move Magelocks into position, mark enemy with their remaining point.
3. Hopefully get one or two pops off at the enemy.
4. Enemy closes the distance and now the Magelocks are very expensive and weak meatshields.

If I can't get the enemy dead during steps 2 and 3, the Magelocks just die or are helpless.

Even with the best planning, things can go wrong. Enemies can leap, nets can miss. Shots can miss (more often than they hit, in my experience) and you really just cannot afford even one miss when getting a single shot off with this unit is so difficult already. Magelocks are just a terrible choice right now. You're better off going with the Houndmaster.

Ideas to Fix

1. Increase range of marking and have it create a movement penalty

If we're to imagine that being "marked" is seeing the Magelock aiming at you, then chances are this will have some kind of psychological effect upon you. You'd be hesitant to advance into the oncoming fire and maybe stall a bit. This can translate into a small movement point penalty to the marked target and give the poor Magelock an actual chance to shoot before the distance is closed.

2. Make shooting cost 1 movement point OR make gun way better

Shooting costing an entire turn while stationary is so painful. Especially if it's going to miss or blow away a friendly unit. In AoW3 you could at least move them into position and then use an engineer/hero to case Reload on them so they could fire. No such luck in AoW4.

4. Permit some kind of escape or provide a bayonet and allow it some kind of melee function

Once the distance has been closed, the Magelock is screwed. You could give them some kind of "shove" ability, similar to the Mercenary, to let them shove a unit back a square so they can shoot them again. Or give them a weak melee attack like in AoW3 so they can at least do something after everything goes pear-shaped.

Thanks for reading. Thoughts?

[Blanch Warren]

Remind me if there is some teleportation skill that can apply to them

[chronobomb]

MAgelocks can easily one-shot most even tier or even Tier 3 enemies with buffs. They are extremely powerful.

Using your infantry to create kill boxes is the best way to use Magelocks (the different golems work really well for this.) Don't group up your magelocks so if one gets zoned, another can blast them off of them. I find this much better than reloading after every shot in AoW3.

They eventually get completely outshined by the cannons and the Tier 3 skirmishers. The cannons have a built in AoE and also shoot through obstructions. The Cav Skirmishers get ridiculous buffs, a really great ranged attack, and have melee skills at the cost of being squishy without buffs.

My only complaint is the cannon should have longer range than the magelocks and their tier 1 skirmisher is too squishy to be useful at the time when you get them. By the time you get the buffs to remedy this situation, you have better tools and a much better skirmisher.

Edit: I forgot to mention but the scouts mark target ability will make the enemy rush your firing lines so make sure to use them.

[Kit Fulvas]

how bout this?

Shoot-1 AP then goes on cooldown
Reload-3 AP, takes shoot off cooldown and replenishes 1 action point.

So now you got the option of having them be like a Blackmage in a leyline (FFXIV), where "as long as i dont move, im good", while still giving them the choice of repositioning and attacking.

[PlutonArioch]

My experience is quite the opposite. Out of hundreds of Magelock shots I have seen maybe 2 or 3 complete misses, maybe 4 or 5 grazes, and I don't think I have hit my own units yet, but that is because usually my Magelocks are behind a screen of frontline melee units, and don't have less than 80% chance to hit anything that is in melee with my units. The only misses were long shots at targets that are not currently engaged - so no chance of hitting my own unit on a miss.
I did pick the keen-eyed trait though so I rarely see less than 70% hit chance without the enemy having evasion or wind barrier or something similar. Add to that guided projectiles (and seeker arrows) and they snipe everything across the battlefield.

They don't need to get any closer than other ranged units, the only difference is that they can not move up and shoot. So don't. Either move up and mark targets for the next turn, or stay out of their range, send your skirmishers in (the dragoon is perfect for that as it can move back after attacking, almost as if they were designed for this) or use spells to damage (and mark) them, and make them come to you, and use up their action points on movement. The most dangerous enemy for this tactic are shock units, and they don't get their bonus damage against your mercenaries, because they have polearms.

Now to your ideas:

Originally posted by jpw1991:

1. Increase range of marking and have it create a movement penalty

Magelocks are not the only unit that marks targets, and no it should not have a movement penalty. Just imagine being on the receiving end of it. Marking is not a chance, it just happens. So do you want your enemy to just apply slowed to your whole army at will?
It would be quite OP.

Originally posted by jpw1991:

2. Make shooting cost 1 movement point OR make gun way better

Shooting costing an entire turn while stationary is so painful. Especially if it's going to miss or blow away a friendly unit. In AoW3 you could at least move them into position and then use an engineer/hero to case Reload on them so they could fire. No such luck in AoW4.

It already does a lot of damage and ignores half of your armor on top. You really just need to think about positioning and you will not have to reposition that often. You can also use the "Spur to Action" hero ability to give them their action points back, which lets them fire. Yes its a once-per-battle ability but what better use for it than your high damage, armor ignoring, ranged attack than can hit pretty much anything you might want dead.

Originally posted by jpw1991:

4. Permit some kind of escape or provide a bayonet and allow it some kind of melee function

That is litterally the job of the Mercenaries. Don't leave your magelocks standing alone. Any mercenary unit that is close enough can rush in and push most units away from your Magelocks, so they don't have to move and can take their shot this turn.

[~ Fabulous ~]

lol it only took 2 of them to kill full health mythic unit within a turn, they are op

[jpw1991]

Maybe they get alright after all the buffs and upgrades. But straight out the gate, for me at least, terrible unit. I am playing on hard difficulty though so maybe that's a factor.

[Midas]

They do take a lot to set up for what they pull off. I end up replacing them with dragoons pretty quickly.

[Lyar]

They're fine. Really. I buffed the hell out of them, was still struggling a bit in mid game, cause i only had blessed souls(they're so much better at marking enemies than any reaver units it's uncanny). After I finished 1st war by destroying a ruler I got access to a Fae Rallies. And this is where it has gone nutty - after the war all my magelocks had legendary for +1 range, Seeker+Meteor+Amplified Arrows, Spawnkin and Vessels of chaos(this one is way like 50 turns later) + some defensive stuff; all summed up to a base damage of 52 per volley and 7 range. Now, introduce the Spring Fae, which grants TRUE STRIKE, so I can shoot at max range. Also all my heroes had Mana Unchained to buff magelocks even further, and sprinkle with AoE debuff magic(found that lava burst is insanely good to stack up the chaos vessels).
All of that results in T4 units getting oneshot on crit, if they're not defending; T5 die in 2-3 shots. Might be even a single crit if you stack full 5 marked on it beforehand. OFC, same Lava Burst spell will easily cleave your magelocks, but I've never seen AI use it so far. For some reason after t3 tomes they go either full debuff spells or full buff. Against player you probably will never get to such a late game though. If a player gets a couple of Lost Wizards or Mage Banes(or even 1 of both) it will be very hard to win a fight, since Wizard just easily will deal like half to 85% hp of magelock on turn 1(add a DMG spell to that and it's basically a OHKO for at least one magelock) and Mage Banes won't let you sustain magelocks with healing.
I dunno why you call Cannons better - despite having AoE they struggle with armor very hard, and barely scratch T3 units, I'm not even talking higher tiers, and bolster armor will make them even more useless. 50% Armor Pierce IS VERY STRONG against anything, especially late game, cause everything stacks fricking 5 bolster armor turn 1. They also don't get ANY race enchantments, which is absolute ass.
So, in total, YOU HAVE TO INVEST EVERYTHING into magelocks to make them strong, since you have to find units that are good at ENABLING them, since you have to delay your tome 5 just to get all the goo race enchantments, since you have to spend hero lvl points to support them as well. But in case you do, they become extremely powerful, and they can work in lategame. Early is a struggle - no buffs from heroes, no good enablers, no enchantments so probably better off having like 3 shield units(with or without hero) and 2-3 magelocks and to play very defensively.