Reavers are weak and suck

[revjwh]

Barbarians - add +8 to first strike, add charge - attack - no penalties.

Every unit in the Reaver line up? Go every other turn or rely on another unit to lose it's action to set up your attack - with the stamina of units a tier lower than you.

I'm pretty sure they had the "Reavers" as part of the Materium tomes and then ripped them out (adding in the bizarre wind book w/Zephyr - how much you want to bet that was the original Magelock tome)......

First DLC that simply sucks a&& for the price and content.

Big fan of the game and the series (1000s of hours) but the Reavers are horrible and zero fun compared to so many other race combos that steamroll over them.

[𝓢𝓓𝓑]

Originally posted by Midas:

Originally posted by ~ Fabulous ~:

dragoon+ canon = you can't hit me but I can hit you thou

This is the big thing about the cannon for sure. It damage might not be amazing compared to the AoW3 cannon, but it's still long enough range to outshoot anything else and force it to come to you.

Penis.

[The Big Brzezinski]

Well, obviously.

But what I'm not sure of though is if the cannon is better than a T4 unit that would cost imperium instead of spoils. Like is it a bonus you slot in when you can, or something you can depend on and build a strategy around, like a transmuter or chaos eater?

[Balekai]

I for the most part agree with the OP and others. It's hard to figure reavers out and keep troops alive etc. Some of my takes on some things, strategies and combos I tested out.



1) Early game i find it's easier to focus on Overseers and Harriers, taking advantage of Movement status effects + Subdue. Who needs damage and proper positioning when you just dominate everything CCing it to death. Combine with with early Zeal Tome possibly to take down those status resistances a notch or two.



2) When that doesn't work your Overseers still have Marked Blast, which possibly blinds for one turn, deals 10 fire damage AND marks the target.



3) In relation to Form Traits I think the best lineup for me at least, are:

- Keen Senses to make all those required ranged hits actually hit and deal with debuffs to hit chances.

- Quick reflexes for that 25% chance for enemies to hit with ranged attacks. You spend a lot of time trying to keep the enemy back to begin with. So with enough crowd control the only things that should be attacking our units most of the time are ranged attacks and AoE abilities.

- For the last single Form Point I like Elusive (+4 Armor/Resist vs. Retal and Opportunity attacks), even though two of the main units, Harrier and Dragoons, ignore opportunity attacks (Slippery). Why? Because Harriers and Dragoons are squishy (especially harrier). They need the extra armour/defence when they engage in melee where if they don't have it (like one game I switched it out for underground trait), they get wrecked vs. retaliation attacks. Harriers would almost always die because they just don't have enough defences. The defence/resist vs. Opportunity attacks helps you're non-slippery units get out of harms way too. You could also pick 8 hp from Hardy instead for an overall buff to health, but in that case I would just pick a terrain Form Trait.

- If playing a more defensive firing line and less slippery unit dependant strategy, then you may want to replace Keen Sighted or Quick Reflexes (probably Keen), with Defensive Tactics (+1 armour/resist and +10% to evasion when allied units adjacent to each other). When replacing Keen we're stacking miss chance vs. our units mainly against ranged attacks. Best defence is a good offence, but not getting hit and soaking damage also helps a lot too. ;p



4) I think Support Leader/Heroes are really important for Reavers to make their units beefier overall in a stack. Or making very tanky hero builds but going with my first thought, a great starting weapon I found was Cryomancer Staff. First of all Reavers don't have access to staves and get the Sword and Pistol as a support weapon instead. That leaves only taking Druid or Cryo Pantheon staffs as a Reaver that's not a Wizard King.

Cryo has a 30% chance to freeze on basic attack (Slowed on fail, which slows movement and takes away one retaliation attack). It also comes with the Freezing Blast ability for heroes. It's a special hero debuff spell/hero perk tagged as a hero support that does 14 Frost damage, with 1 turn cooldown, that ALWAYS HITS, with a 90% chance to Freeze!!

Basically your leader becomes another Harrier to setup Subdues (Mind Control) with Freeze. it is also of course another support unit in the stack with AoE Warding defensive mode. You get great damage mitigation by freezing enemies and at least slowing them. Not to forget Slowed taking away a retaliation that as a mechanic, is the number one killer of dragoons/harriers. Lastly and as mentioned Freezing Blast is a hero support and counts towards unlocking hero support perks on levelups.

Really helpful for a faction build I used, which starts out with a really weak stack and benefits from another disabling/support unit.



5) I'm not a big fan of the War Spoils mechanics like others (not enough sources of revenue). Fortunately for me my first Reaver build I tested I actually really liked in it's counter intuitiveness. I stuck with a Champion Bannerlord + Silver tongued build that I wanted to abuse before DLC release, when I thought Reavers didn't actually start with a Free City (thereby Bannerlords would have the ability to "ninja" another player's Free city in combination with Silver-tongued.

Unfortunately (not really for other reasons) that wasn't the case lol but it still worked out for me in testing:

- The societal trait Silver Tongued (+1 Whispering Stone perk from shadow unlocked, Free City trading cost nothing, -50% cost of Pronouncements.

One trait opens up the entire Whispering Stone mechanic from turn one for Reavers. You get one shadow affinity to pick up the juicy first affinity perk pick around turn 20ish or whatever with no other chaos investment. Zero resource cost for trading with Free Cities including 0 War Spoils cost. The resources you get from trading with Free Cities and Free City AI scale with turns and initial World Threat settings (Brutal difficulty and/or Free City Map buff = Brutal Free cities which you can now befriend and order around rather then slowly intimidating/raid and dying lol).

You can spend your War spoils on more important things than dealing with Free Cities when you eventually get spoils revenue. One of those is when you want to use any Proclamations especially Reaver specific ones. They now cost -50% War Spoils too. That's two Reaver mechanical things we just seriously discounted/made free.

- Bannerlords I found was great as always when combined with Silver Tongue. Start turn one with a city revealed and drop the stone in the slot for better relations. Start rallying a few turns to beef up my stack(s) and drafting capabilities. Throw them Free City units at the enemy as meat shields protecting your drafted Reaver units. The good side of your closest Free City being of a different race, is that you get different cultural units too that can be really helpful with the right ones early game.

Then with order Tomes such as Faith, Beacon, and Sanctuary, combined with order affinity perks, and chaos affinity -20% unit upkeep, i abused the hell out of Free city mechanics including the new Free City War Coordination. All my units were super super cheap by end games and I could rally a stack or more every 2-5 turns for peanuts. Maintaining huge armies with little thought or owned cities was also very easy.

Wow this was going to be a short post. I ended up having a lot more to say than I expected and just kept typing lol. Hope it helps someone or saved them some time theorycrafting.

[Blanch Warren]

REAVER CULTURE IS BRUTAL

[Black Hammer]

Originally posted by Balekai:

- The societal trait Silver Tongued (+1 Whispering Stone perk from shadow unlocked, Free City trading cost nothing, -50% cost of Pronouncements.

One trait opens up the entire Whispering Stone mechanic from turn one for Reavers. You get one shadow affinity to pick up the juicy first affinity perk pick around turn 20ish or whatever with no other chaos investment. Zero resource cost for trading with Free Cities including 0 War Spoils cost. The resources you get from trading with Free Cities and Free City AI scale with turns and initial World Threat settings (Brutal difficulty and/or Free City Map buff = Brutal Free cities which you can now befriend and order around rather then slowly intimidating/raid and dying lol).

You can spend your War spoils on more important things than dealing with Free Cities when you eventually get spoils revenue. One of those is when you want to use any Proclamations especially Reaver specific ones. They now cost -50% War Spoils too. That's two Reaver mechanical things we just seriously discounted/made free.

Must agree, Silver Tongued makes reavers far more enjoyable to play.

[AkumaOuja]

Reavers main thing is they have what is basically a T2 halberd unit for their T1. They have the lockdown support, but it's honestly almost a trap, since it has several reasonably strong abilities but they're all single target and eat its entire turn. What you want to do is get a better support ASAP from a tome with AOE buffs/heal, bulk up on regen or defenses, and basically do pike and shot formations with enmassed Mercenaries and Magelocks. Magelock's big gimmick is that can rip through single targets very consistently, in that so long as you're using them right you can assume something from tier 1 to 4 is going to be dying every round for every two magelocks you have more or less no matter what the enemy does [granted the mercenaries may need to finish something off from time to time for the bulkier side of T3] but that does require your frontline hold more or less no matter what happens, thus you need to make absolutely certain you can group buff/heal.

The support has the issue of the single target being kind of worthless [if you're in a position where a single unit is needing that big of a heal and it's not a hero or a centerpiece unit it's probably going to be burst down again next turn, hell if it is it might anyway, and if you need multiples healed you're just screwed] but it's what you have early on. The special ability to basically delete an enemy is cool and can be used to replace losses, but it's subpar outside of removal and even then it requires you to run harriers which you just don't have any room for in a stack that needs to be as tough and crunchy as possible.

[Fendelphi]

I dont see the issue. They have a lot of battlefield control and can spike for high damage.
They can go for a defensive or offensive playstyle with their core units, depending on how you want to design your armies.

Tier 1 Skirmishers and Pikemen means you can go for tier 1 spam and have both anti-large and mobility with a bit of range. A lot of enhancements and upgrades that help with the cost as well, so you dont really feel the +2 gold cost for the Merceneary halberdiers if you go for this style.
The Mercenary's "Drive Back" is a pretty fun ability to use and can be used aggressive or defensively, and the Harrier's net have a very high immobilize chance.

The Magelock is a bit weird to use initially, but packs a serious punch for a tier 2 unit when used in the right combinations(that -50% defense means it punch above its weight, and Focused Aggression combined with the Vessel of Chaos minor transformation(+10% damage for each debuff on enemy, up to +30%), and the Seeker Arrows and Amplified Arrows enchantments allows for some silly volley fire.
And any enhancement you pick for the Magelock will also(usually) benefit your Harrier, the Magelock Cannon and the Dragoon(seeker Arrows are particularly good).

The good thing about +% damage scaling is that all those flat damage channels(like Amplified arrows) gets boosted as well. So if you hit a target with 5 Marks on them, you get a +80% damage boost to all channels. With this combo, even just 2 marks it is a +40% damage boost.

In my current Reaver play, I have a frost based Dragon as my ruler, which gives me a lot of control and the ability to intercept anything.
Another thing I did was give my faction the Fast Recuperation trait, so any damage I do take is quickly recovered.

War Spoils dont come up much in the early game, but it is still "free" stuff you would otherwise have to pay gold or mana for. And it speeds various aspects of gameplay(including securing vassals) up considerably.
Shout out to Balekai for mentioning the Silvertongue trait.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by AkumaOuja:

Reavers main thing /snip

Harriers and Overseer are pretty good early game especially if you're like me and literally start with very little units because of Societal selections. The gimmicky elimination of some tough enemies right away helps a lot when not playing a tank or dragon. Starting with just one Harrier, Merc, Overseer and two observers I could push without deaths by freezing with staff one enemy, netting + subduing another and divide and conquer without a death. Starting on a non story map on brutal is a different uhh story (no starting Overseer lol).

Then as the game progresses the gimmickyness starts to fade. I find myself as I come up against harder enemies and especially enemies immune to mind effects, going back to a line of fire strategy. Which requires just as you say. Getting the effective health of your troops up. It's why I take mostly defensive traits for Form save for Keen Senses to stack with your Marks debuff, to make sure you're always hitting everything because missing one shot can be make or break. I swapped Keen out for another defensive then found myself actually missing shots/net throws. I did not like that. :D :D

The earliest thing for my build was Mending Touch with Faith Tome, being a free no action cost touch spell. So it works pretty well with Overseers who's action economy is already pretty demanding as you say and single target (you want to subdue, heal, and attack with their staff to blind/mark ALL at the same time on many turns). Having a free heal that costs nothing and seems measly, actually gets better the more damage reduction you stack on units. I would take some Nature Tomes but i'm too tome starved for that and need to build defence too.

Luckily playing as Vassal heavy faction I'm speccing into Beacon, Sanctuary and Exaltation. Beacon has a summonable combat tower that heals 5 HP and Morale each turn for 3 turns in a two hex radius. At least something. Keepers Mark from Sanctuary Tome is a genuine Life Saver (literally since it prevents polearm and shield units from dying the first time they should).

Materium Tomes also along the way for defence enchantments + sunders, and picking up the new Tome of Construct for Linked Minds (immune to flanking) + Compounding Defence etc.

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

/snip

All very good points. I actually never thought of Shadow Dragon for Frost damage and freezes etc. That could be very very good (well no i know it is lol). Super Tank + Mass control that synergies with Overseer's Subdue. I thought about taking Fast Recoup myself but because of Faith Tome i had a spell version in Army Heal. So I didn't.

[jpw1991]

I find the Mercenary and Harrier (net throwing dude) good. Especially the Mercenary. But the Magelocks suck. Dragoon is probably good in skilled hands (not my hands). Can't comment on the rest yet.

[Charlando[SunsOfStmChrts]]

Originally posted by AkumaOuja:

What you want to do is get a better support ASAP from a tome with AOE buffs/heal, bulk up on regen or defenses, and basically do pike and shot formations with enmassed Mercenaries and Magelocks.

So, getting chaplains or scalds would help?

[Balekai]

Originally posted by CharlandoSunsOfStmChrts:

Originally posted by AkumaOuja:

What you want to do is get a better support ASAP from a tome with AOE buffs/heal, bulk up on regen or defenses, and basically do pike and shot formations with enmassed Mercenaries and Magelocks.

So, getting chaplains or scalds would help?

Well Chaplains are from Tome of Faith (Tier 1 tome) which has:

- Chaplains of course, which are Tier 1 (easy to draft) with Healing Prayer which is a 30 hp heal, with a 2 turn cooldown, has a 4 hex range. It's a single target spell, that also removes all neg status effects from ally. They also have Bless ability for 2 Fortune, Strengthened and Resistance stacks, on a 1 turn cooldown. Very powerful t1 support that come with Mending enchant. Basically a cheap single target heal bot and resistance/dmg/crit buffer.

- Staves of Mending. Gives Mending Touch ability for all supports, healing 15 temp hp, with a 1 hex range (touch spell), no AP cost and on a 2 turn cooldown. This will also help your Overseers that already has to be in touch range to heal and is already fairly close to other units to pull off subdues and attack enemies.

- Army Heal for outside of battle for 25 healing party wide.


Overseer has:

- Patch up which is a 40 damage heal, but is 1 hex range (touch) on a 2 turn cooldown. Much harder to use in battle compared to something like Healing Prayer. Even if you take Faith for Mending Touch, you're also going to have a hard time using Patch up and Mending Touch in one turn. Unless you use Mending Touch on an adjacent ally first, then move to another ally and heal them with Patch Up. Otherwise there's little opportunity to heal one ally 55 temp hp. Then again, there is. :D

- Subdue which disables/mind controls a unit until end of combat unless the Overseer dies. Can only effect Frozen, immobilised or Stunned units. Once of prevention is worth a pound of cure ability. You also get an option to recruit the monster with war spoils after battle.

- They're Staff attack has a 60% chance to Blind and always inflicts a mark on hit for 3 turns (-10% evasion and for Reaver units, +10% more damage too).


Skald (from a tier 2 Tome which means oyu get it later) has:

- AoE Song of Carnage 4 hex range, 1 hex radius buff for 2 stacks of fortune and Strengthened.

- AoE Song of Revelry 4 hex ranged, 1 hex radius heal/buff for 1 stack of regeneration for one turn, Rally for +5 morale at the end of turn and hastened for quick movement and an extra retaliation attack.

- Staff has 60% chance of inflicting Insanity which makes enemies attack random ally/enemy units.


So what I would say overall is that Skald is the best healer and buffer over time out of the three, because they can propagate Regeneration.

However, Nymphs from tier 2 Tome of Fertility does it better arguably because they apply 2 stacks of regeneration rather than 1, but less offensive oriented (the 1 hex AoE removes neg buffs rather than morale/haste). You could argue this though because Nymph AoE heal is on a three turn cooldown as opposed to 2 turn cooldown. That said, they also have Seduce which is mind control AND you get the unit for mana if combat ends when active. So if you're going down chaos line take Skald. If going down Nature pick Nymph instead. Also AoE spells scale greatly when combined with enchantments that add more buffs to support abilities.

The Chaplain is still single target and it's hard to argue going for it alone, when you already have Overseer(s) and you can just research Staves of Mending instead of researching Chaplain. However, the good thing in addition to Chaplains, Mending Staves and Army Heal, is that this Tome leads into Beacon Tome. Which has arguably the best AoE sustained heal at tier 2 tomes except it's a stationary tower combat spell. Well that may be a plus.

Conjure Divine Beacon has 60 health, pulses +5 flat temp (regen is 6 hp per stack and has a max of 5) and +5 morale, in a 2 hex radius for 3 turns. It fits perfectly with a firing line combat strategy for Reavers. Basically the AoW4 version of Oathbound healing banners in Planetfall. They save you a lot of action economy as your units can do other things while this spell does its healing. The enemy tends to target summoned towers too eating up their action economy. you can also summon multiple of these in combat.

The Overseer is still competitive since it's abilities do many different things the Reaver needs. Healing, Marks, Blinding enemies and taking out enemies with Subdue after CC. It gets better when you take Tome of Faith and Beacon because both take the pressure off Overseer to use his action to heal something. He can instead mitigate damage through his attacks/CC.

Then there's your neighbouring Free City which may have a desirable culture support unit you can Rally that has AoE heals. :)

[Kanjejou]

After playing a bit with them I feel like some of their unit seem to lack in their own job like the best marked seems to be their scout since it doesnt need ot go near ennemie sot put marks...

how it felt to me to play them, divided per unit.

-Harrier are nice but will rapidly die to anything, still very decent, and synergise with the whole army but mostly with other melees
-Mercenaries are excellent T1 with T2 hallebardier stats. But higher upkeep than a t1
-Magelock are... unreliable... being unable to move(even a little)+shoot and having a short optimal range and only a range 5 mark(only one stack) power mean if you mark your in charge range if yuou dont you hope ennemies come to you and even with penetration to ignore 50% of physical armor it still hit kind of meh... if you dont have an open line of fire and 5 mark on target its almost impossible to shot anything...
only been able to make them work if i spam observers... which can only mark... so if you make a stack of them to designate target they can be ignored until the rest of the army dies... M'lock can hit like truck but need too much investement...that will only truly benefit them.
they also suffer grealty from attrition...
-Overseer are excelent. good attack effect, good support power, nothing much to say.
-Dragoon, super squirmisher on horse with ranged distraction spammer and not too shabby melee and stats? a bit brittle maybe...
-Magelock Canon are nice very good range with 5+the line, solid stats but like magelock can easily be shut down by telporting units but at least the AOE make it more reliable with no or few mark than margelock...also the need for war spoil is annoying

Feel like they dont stack marks fast enough by themself... thus often you have to go glade hunter or scrying book... quite annoying...

[Malaficus Shaikan]

They do?
I end entire fights exploiting there ability to subdue.
Harrier + overseers means very few enemies are fight back.
And i auto win even when they subdued targets have full health.
Allowing me to win without damage offten.
Now it is true they arent as brokenly overpowered as high culture but nothing is.

[Janthis]

The issue with the cannon is the same as the magelocks, they need 3 APs to fire. If an enemy gets into melee range you are useless. Also they would often need to reposition themselves to take advantage of hitting units in a line, but if you move you can't fire, and next turn those units might move from their positions. I generally replace cannons with ironclads in the late game.