All right let's be real, who uses rally of lieges

[snuggleform]

I'm getting tired of min-maxing doomstacks of archers or battlemages. It's too easy and too obvious.

Has anyone gone out of their way to rely on rally of the lieges to snowball to victory? Care to share? Yeah I get that by its nature it's random but maybe someone has found a secret to making it work?

[Taleheart]

I use it a lot. But I would prefer that it has the option to add more than one unit of each type. That way I can at least control my line up, and not have "a little bit of everything".

[Orion Invictus]

I've used it to complement my main race's strengths and/or cover their weaknesses (for example, melee units for a race that focuses on magic).

[Fyre]

I use bannerlord and other vassal things pretty regularly and the city-state right next to you is always your race so grabbing units from them just about every game is a no-brainer for me. If they're off-race but on-culture you better believe they're getting rallied. To be fair this is mostly just to faciltate battlemage/archer deathstacks.

If you haven't already figured out which are your favorite units to recruit from ancient wonders I suggest not thinking rally is 'random' and actually looking at the wonders. I find the snakes mix well with ranged.

If you really want a mish-mash of random troops from the liege then just get lots of order affinity and go nuts with +imperium from every vassal, get all the order tree perks and it doesn't matter what the unit is when you have 30 of them at half cost.

Edit: Goes without saying you gotta explore for those vassals early and be prepared to spend imperium and make some enemies for them. If it doesn't work out it's not like building units yourself stopped working all of a sudden and tons of vassals is a free win.

Also it's not much of a snowball as much as it is a huge wave of troops all at once when the rally happens.

Originally posted by snuggleform:

Originally posted by AnemoneMeer:

I make effective use of it personally. It's cheap units, and if you set it up right, it's cheap units of your own species, with all your modifiers.

What do you mean "set it up right." Are you talking about building up cities as your own race then releasing them as vassals? Most of the time like free cities out in the wild aren't your own race, there is no "setting up" to do with those, it's rng.

One more thing, I wouldn't be complaining about how the races aren't perfect and it's all rng, you just should not be relying on free cities being your race ever, period.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by lethminite:

I find the issue is that end game you want to have 3 strong armies that stay together, and rally does very little to contribute to that, since all the units are random. You could make 10 army stacks easily, but they aren't going to trade out very well against an end game army, and while they are cheep to recruit, their upkeep can be pretty killer.

The units are not random, they consist exactly of your vassal units based on their city tier.
So a vassal with a T1 city unlocks both T1 units, and so on.

Additionally, every individually annexed Ancient Wonder gives you exactly 1 of each units listed there.

[Aunty Herbert]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

The units are not random, they consist exactly of your vassal units ...
Additionally, every individually annexed Ancient Wonder gives you exactly 1 of each units listed there.

The randomness comes from the map generator.

OK, you can convert your vassals to your own race, but it takes a lot of effort and pretty much immediately changes your alignment to pure evil, if you do it repeatedly.
And you can't really preplan what wonders are available in a convenient distance to your area of operation.

This doesn't break anything, you just have to adapt your plans to make the most out of whatever you are offered, but it thwarts the idea of optimizing a specific build strategy beyond the opening turns.

I already mentioned, when I ever run out of new build ideas to test and optimize, I'll pick barbarians with Fabled Hunters and Wonder Builder and will just run a zoological garden as armies. Probably not a mindcrushingly strong build, but a perfect beer-and-pretzel endeavour.

[Provengreil]

The secret to making rally work is to, well, use it. You can generate multiple stacks of mid tier units, far faster and cheaper than even rush-buying could ever make, and just throw them into the fray, let autocalc do its thing, and then you main stacks afterwards will have no trouble mopping up if they lose.

Once the war's over, don't feel bad about disbanding.

Notably, Order is most suited to doing this(doubly so if you're good). Not only do order-based playthroughs have better vassalization mechanics, but the rally units come out faster and stronger. Furthermore, you lose less from doing it since order tomes contain very few race transforms anyway, I think it's just anointed and angelform.

EDIT: Another tip for this one is to not queue anything in your cities, ever. While this tends to slow down your turns a bit as you constantly have to assign new buildings, it keeps your gold ready for that moment's notice when Gondor needs aid.

[Solvem Probler]

I hate how you have to shuttle them from your capital to the front.

[Aunty Herbert]

Originally posted by NihilVerum:

I hate how you have to shuttle them from your capital to the front.

Well, don't. I love that I don't have to worry about having to shuttle my front troops back to my capital in case something unforseen wanders in.
I mostly "use" my Rally by not using it. Capital guards, that I haven't recruited yet, are guards, that I don't need to pay upkeep for. And if I know I can recruit a full stack within 3 turns if I just have enough gold reserves, that's a great insurance policy.

Otherwise, you could experiment with moving your capital around. I haven't tried it out yet, but the option only says it takes 3 turns, and I see nothing about costs involved (other than probably painting a bull's eye on any weakly defended city you would move into)
That way, you can rally your lieges in whatever city you fancy, even the 1 pop village, that just spawned from your front outpost, that you mostly built for healing your troops.

[Motherball]

I always use rally to supplement my armies if I can afford it, unless it doesn’t offer anything unique (to my faction), which is quite rare.

[CrUsHeR]

Just back on topic - did you check the Order affinity bonuses? You can get +2 ranks for all Rally units, so you could recruit Legend rank archers for example. As many as you have vassals of your culture / faction.

[Aggamemnon]

Where else can you get an undead dragon to sweep across the map and join your sieging army ?

I don't aim to rely on it, but it's nice to have options.

It's also handy for what it's intended, replacing losses quickly, increasing vassal strength/defence

I don't try and Min max, but I've had full necromancy before and tanked my mama by summoning full undead stacks while at the same time conquering a city i should really of razed or vassalized. I haven't made that mistake again but it does sometimes help to have a unit that isn't going to add to your already high upkeep by adding also to racial enhancements/bonuses - sometimes.

Plus. You know. Dragon.

[SupMellow?]

Originally posted by snuggleform:

I'm getting tired of min-maxing doomstacks of archers or battlemages. It's too easy and too obvious.

Has anyone gone out of their way to rely on rally of the lieges to snowball to victory? Care to share? Yeah I get that by its nature it's random but maybe someone has found a secret to making it work?

Just try them? Who cares if it isn't optimal. I enjoyed making some "High" nation that controlled several city states. I had very elite unit stacks, and then I had those rally of the liege stacks that just pretty much went around slowly sacrificing themselves to clear random camps. They felt like mercenaries. It was fun.

[lethminite]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Originally posted by lethminite:

I find the issue is that end game you want to have 3 strong armies that stay together, and rally does very little to contribute to that, since all the units are random. You could make 10 army stacks easily, but they aren't going to trade out very well against an end game army, and while they are cheep to recruit, their upkeep can be pretty killer.

The units are not random, they consist exactly of your vassal units based on their city tier.
So a vassal with a T1 city unlocks both T1 units, and so on.

Additionally, every individually annexed Ancient Wonder gives you exactly 1 of each units listed there.

Lots of people commented "they aren't random"
I know you get the units you ordered, I meant you end up with a 'random collection' of units, based on what was available. Not a controlled set of units that work perfectly with your tome choices (assuming you chose correctly), like from you own cities.

[Winterwolf]

Originally posted by Jay:

There are two interesting things about the rally of lieges that I have yet to really play with but has me thinking about how to empire build around it.

1) it's 50% cheaper to hire units from the rally if you're giving them to a vassal instead of buying them for yourself.

2) you can recruit vassal units by engaging them with one of your own units. And depending on your alignment the costs could be cheap or even free.

I'm thinking Triumph meant for vassal players to bolster vassal armies via the rally and then to recruit them directly with a scout or passing stack, cheaper and faster than if they tried building those units on their own.
At least that's my guess.

What mod are you using that lets you recruit vassal units with your own. Base game any time you try to engage vassal units it brings up the vassal diplomacy screen.

[Balekai]

Champion + Order Affinity + Bannerlords + Chosen Uniters (or Silvertongue) + Map Bannerlords modifier (optional works regardless but even better with this) + High world threat/Difficulty = A very good snowball. The biggest deals is that you can A)ignore draft while building cities B) Ignore summoning which is your usual non draft option C) Use that mana income for unit enchants and casting spells D) Eventually recruit armies SUPER CHEAP AND FAST. The recruit time for liege armies is two turns once purchased. Once you have a teleporter system up with lots of Liege points to spend your lieges are almost unstoppable in momentum. E) You can supercharge your vassals and they will actually do stuff.

The world threat level and/or difficulty generally is a big deal for Vassal/Liege play because you need your vassal AI to actually attack the enemy. Low threat level and easier difficulters make vassals and AI in general too passive.

I go:

Champion (stack relations bonus and Order/Uniter trade bonuses with vassals).

High Culture (optional, but it gets you another +2 Order affinity to get those affinity traits quicker).

Societal Traits:

Bannerlords - "Halves" the time of lieges from around 11-12 turns to 7-8 turns right off the bat. The +25 Allegiance with your closest city usually means your race, and an automatic Pact of Cooperation. Give them one of your Whispering Stones on turn 1 and you get Pact of Loyalty to start Lieges by Turn 2, costing about 30 gold to quicken it up from 7ish turns to 4ish turns. By turn 8 you will likely have an extra Sunpriest, Daylight Spear, Dusk Hunter and Dawn Defender. Repeating basically every 6-8 turns on top of draft recruitment then mid/late game repeating about every 4-6 turns.

Chosen Uniters - Extra Whisper stone for quick coversion of a seconds Vassal while boosting capitol stability early. +1 rank to shield and polearm units which will stack with the +2 liege rank bonuses. Each Liege I always recruit my race's Shield, Polearm, Support and Archer units. Then there's the 20% extra income with vassals which gives a lot of economic boost when you start abusing vassal cities by making your own in longer games.

Racial Traits:

Body - Keen Senses (for more archer accuracy) or Quick Reflexes. I like Quick Reflexes more because you already get accuracy bonus from awakened on Archers/spellcasters.

Mind - Ferocious or Elusive. Ferocious if you take defensive stances with enemies charging you and you can keep toons alive with healing. Elusive if you're the one charging in or your backline is always getting tied up in melee.

First Tome: Tome of Faith for even more Order affinity and getting those good mid/late affinity order buffs to lieges/vassals quicker. You also get more healing overall and a vassal spell that quickens allegiance generation. Starts the ball moving on Faithful upkeep discounts.

Next notable Tome: Tome of Beacon Tier II - Whole host of goodies. Covenant of the Faithful free/vassal city spell which enchants to give +10 Imperium and make units recruited from them in lieges automatically Faithful. Blessed Reinforcements is a cheap spell that summons 2 Blessed Souls (Good Tier 3 Ethereal Unit) for free city/vassal of your choosing (This is how you give Vassals bigger armies early). Mighty Meek anti high tier enchantment for lower tier units. A healing summon combat spell pylon. Summon Lightbringer summon with a convert spell. Champion of the Faithful which is a hero support skill that gives all Fathful units +20 morale at the start of battle (all our units will likely be faithful so...)

Next Notable Tome: Tome of Sanctuary Tier III - Highlights are Anointed People (+3 divine and status resist). Keeper's Mark (Grants faithful but more importantly, units enchanted can't die for 1 turn on taking fatal damage but can't use offensive actions during that time. Combine with something like Aspect of the Root from Glades, Anyways it allows your temp healing to keep saving your frontline when they would usually die). More healing in general. Sanctify hero buff skill that can be used every other turn (+3 bolster defence/resist single target).

Notable Affinity Traits:

Career Soldiers Branch 4 Order - 20% faster experience gain for Shield/Polearm units.

Exemplar Branch 5 Order - +2 rank to liege units.

House Levies Branch 8 Order - Important and you get this fairly quick. -50% gold to recruit Lieges. turns reduced by -5 (huge especially combine with Bannerlords or even better, the map Bannerlords mod in addition).

Knightly Orders Last Branch Order - Gives Knightly Orders which grant special buffs to your units akin to Awakening.

When you have a really good economy keep taking your own racial units then buy your vassals extra armies with what's left of your Rally points. when you run out of an economy to keep spamming Liege units (you will), just give them all to vassals.