Why I've stopped playing AoW4

[Eupolemos]

Just trying to provide some constructive feedback.

I am not challenged by the hardest difficulty. Playing without having to improve is not fun for me.

After I have tried out some major builds, there is nothing more to do. Multiplayer is not a realistic thing with the way tactical combat takes up time.

This is a problem and I will not be buying multiple DLCs for a game I know won't captivate me from now on, as it is now.

Not trying to hate here, it was a very well done and fun game while it lasted, but if the company wants it to be an ongoing DLC-seller they have to fix this core issue for people like me.

Much love etc. <3

[Flickmann]

It's awesome for the first 15-20 hours, then the blandness hits like a freight train. The game desperately needs some unique mechanics for feudal, barbarian, industrial societies beyond tiny stat buffs or additional resource collection. I don't think we're going to see even the option for race-specific traits and mechanics.

[Roderick]

Any ideas how the tactical combat should be? I don't know any game where a turn based battle doesn't take time, especially between humans.

[SQW]

To be fair, AI in Planetfall was woefully inadequate on the highest difficulty too even after 3 DLCs. Without mods, it would hardly build tier III units let alone IVs although they were noticeably more aggressive than 4.

I posted about the AI on the latest patch comment and the dev actually responded. Apparently, their pre-launch testing didn't notice any passivity in the AI (although the vassals is bugged and will be fixed shortly). The devs posted a sticky asking people to send saves so they can tune the AI better.

[Eupolemos]

Originally posted by Roderick:

Any ideas how the tactical combat should be? I don't know any game where a turn based battle doesn't take time, especially between humans.

An idea for multiplayer could be to only make heroes controllable and the rest automated. That would cut down on combat time while still giving the players some agency. And of course, have a time limit on each round.

But I think they'd might have to pivot strategic combat from the ground up to make it satisfying.

[Graill]

The game is too "Monty Hall" A person get's/can get everything. I just finished the hardest scenario I could create, and while it did take a very long time, the dev script should have won with what I was up against. Instead, there are simply too many bonuses a person can put together and none of it is ever punished except for time.

A mistake should cost a person dearly, it does not.

I played the supplicant, giving away gold and mana and gifts to whichever NPC script was angling toward me. Once I was strong enough, and even the most hostile NPC was stuffed with gifts, I would make my move. Smile and whittle away the outside.

The main problem in my opinion is the dev script, they need some outside help because right now the scripting triggers in some really weird ways and does not react compared to games like CIV 6 at max level.

There are too many tomes, too many bonuses, and too many ways to "make friends" or at least keep the dev script from taking a person out early on. Even with handicaps, everything can be circumvented.

Self imposed restrictions to Tomes and self imposed rules make the game as it is artificial for wins at this point. I feel the devs need some outside help in scripting the NPC bots and they need to re-balance bonuses and the Tomes trees and what races can use what.

There is far too much choice...never thought I would say that about a game. As for people saying the AI is bad or something similar, there is no such thing as "AI", that is a marketing thing right now being overused by everyone. If the devs are incapable of writing script triggers or anticipating certain situations and programming for it, then the computer bots will not have a selection to balance the numbers, and that is all this game is, numbers to the computer, there is no "thinking" by the computer.

Either impose your own rules in the scenarios to make them harder, or impose your own rules in your handcrafted games to achieve some satisfaction. In any case, the dev script in this game is pretty weak. It is my opinion there are simply too many bonuses and access to counters that a person does not have to critically think about what happens if a mistake is made, as that frankly does not matter.

[Roderick]

Originally posted by Eupolemos:

Originally posted by Roderick:

Any ideas how the tactical combat should be? I don't know any game where a turn based battle doesn't take time, especially between humans.

An idea for multiplayer could be to only make heroes controllable and the rest automated. That would cut down on combat time while still giving the players some agency. And of course, have a time limit on each round.

But I think they'd might have to pivot strategic combat from the ground up to make it satisfying.

Well, I do like 4x games for building an army like I want it and then command the units. The ai f.e. can't really work with defensive, tanky builds. Automatic combat (at least for me) looses more units when I have shield beares and healers than with shock units and archers, while I don't loose anything commanding myself, while I am better with shield troops and healers than with the others.
So I wouldn't like to have an ai commanding my troops at all. But my onliest idea for the problem would be much more fluent interface and mechanics... so I was curious what you think. ^^

[Roderick]

Originally posted by Graill:

There is far too much choice...never thought I would say that about a game. As for people saying the AI is bad or something similar, there is no such thing as "AI"

I think these are the two main points.
1. There is no sweet spot for everyone. For some the games are always too restricting, for others there is too much freedom.
2. The scripts are bad. Enemies are too passive _and_ don't combine bonuses meaningfull. If they would be, I believe suddenly there won't be "too many tomes", since one would long for the next tome to have a counter to a certain ai strategy. Right now, enemies propose no thread once you figured their scripts out.

[Sephiroth]

The game got really boring really fast.
The older games like AoW: Shadow Magic were much better.

[Sifer2]

Originally posted by Roderick:

Originally posted by Graill:

There is far too much choice...never thought I would say that about a game. As for people saying the AI is bad or something similar, there is no such thing as "AI"

I think these are the two main points.
1. There is no sweet spot for everyone. For some the games are always too restricting, for others there is too much freedom.
2. The scripts are bad. Enemies are too passive _and_ don't combine bonuses meaningfull. If they would be, I believe suddenly there won't be "too many tomes", since one would long for the next tome to have a counter to a certain ai strategy. Right now, enemies propose no thread once you figured their scripts out.

I think the problem isn't enough choice but rather there isn't enough reward for specialization. In other games a Hybrid is more versatile but weaker. Here the Hybrid dominates since it's very easy to grab the best of everything. Both because of how you can just grab higher tomes from another affinity without having the lower one's, and because most of the best empire tree abilities are earlier in the tree with the late one's being nothing special for reaching the end of a branch.

As for the AI. I wonder if many people finding it too easy have tried giving the AI's advanced starts. You will pretty much have to turn off Magic victory if you do because they build the seeds so fast but they are much stronger.

[Professor H. Farnsworth]

Originally posted by Benkei Kuruma:

Originally posted by Sifer2:

I think the problem isn't enough choice but rather there isn't enough reward for specialization. In other games a Hybrid is more versatile but weaker. Here the Hybrid dominates since it's very easy to grab the best of everything. Both because of how you can just grab higher tomes from another affinity without having the lower one's, and because most of the best empire tree abilities are earlier in the tree with the late one's being nothing special for reaching the end of a branch.

As for the AI. I wonder if many people finding it too easy have tried giving the AI's advanced starts. You will pretty much have to turn off Magic victory if you do because they build the seeds so fast but they are much stronger.

This sums up exactly how I feel about this game.

You should be rewarded for sticking with a build. You learn "entry level" Shadow skills to unlock the stronger ones, for example. I shouldn't just magically be able to switch from tier 1 High skills to tier 2 Shadow skills. I haven't "paid my dues", so to speak.

I mean, it pretty much already works that way with city upgrades. You can't just create a level 5 wizard tower without speccing into the lower tiered towers first. But nobody complains and calls that "restrictive". I think some people are just incredibly unreasonable, honestly, like they're just punch-drunk in love with the game (and would still be no matter how it turned out), they defend everything about it to the death, and can't understand why so many others have these specific issues with it.

The sacrifice of narrowing your focus should be awarded higher tier stuff, naturally. Granted, this can make you a one-trick pony, which might be easier to exploit by someone who spread themselves a bit thinner. To me, this is what makes things more interesting from a strategic perspective, though.

You can't even remotely begin to compare constructing a building and magic as similar. One follows real life - you simply have to start with a foundation and then construct it floor by floor.
Magic is not real life and there's nothing outside you suspension of disbelief that says you can't learn more "magic" types. In fact, what "magic" has been practiced throughout the ages of humanity have _never_ been restrictive there was nothing preventing you from doing it all and the same holds true in a lot of fictional universes. I suggest you expand your knowledge on this subject a wee tad.

The game is made to include all magic and a lot of cultures would suffer serious penalties if they couldn't jump between the tomes, because it arbitrarily infuriates some people that want it restricted.
You don't like it? Play with mods that restrict tomes. Problem solved.

[Emperor Fooble]

Originally posted by Flickmann:

It's awesome for the first 15-20 hours, then the blandness hits like a freight train. The game desperately needs some unique mechanics for feudal, barbarian, industrial societies beyond tiny stat buffs or additional resource collection. I don't think we're going to see even the option for race-specific traits and mechanics.

100% agree. Everything is just a blob of grey. I've tried to put more hours in simply to 'unlock' the pointless unlocks, but its wildly boring compared to its predecessors.

[Midas]

Originally posted by Eupolemos:

Just trying to provide some constructive feedback.

I am not challenged by the hardest difficulty. Playing without having to improve is not fun for me.

After I have tried out some major builds, there is nothing more to do. Multiplayer is not a realistic thing with the way tactical combat takes up time.

This is a problem and I will not be buying multiple DLCs for a game I know won't captivate me from now on, as it is now.

Not trying to hate here, it was a very well done and fun game while it lasted, but if the company wants it to be an ongoing DLC-seller they have to fix this core issue for people like me.

Much love etc. <3

The DLCs will almost certainly round out the game, if it's anything like planetfall. In the meantime, just play around with Mods. There are lots that add new content and possibilities.

[Flickmann]

Originally posted by Professor H. Farnsworth:

Originally posted by Benkei Kuruma:

This sums up exactly how I feel about this game.

You should be rewarded for sticking with a build. You learn "entry level" Shadow skills to unlock the stronger ones, for example. I shouldn't just magically be able to switch from tier 1 High skills to tier 2 Shadow skills. I haven't "paid my dues", so to speak.

I mean, it pretty much already works that way with city upgrades. You can't just create a level 5 wizard tower without speccing into the lower tiered towers first. But nobody complains and calls that "restrictive". I think some people are just incredibly unreasonable, honestly, like they're just punch-drunk in love with the game (and would still be no matter how it turned out), they defend everything about it to the death, and can't understand why so many others have these specific issues with it.

The sacrifice of narrowing your focus should be awarded higher tier stuff, naturally. Granted, this can make you a one-trick pony, which might be easier to exploit by someone who spread themselves a bit thinner. To me, this is what makes things more interesting from a strategic perspective, though.

You can't even remotely begin to compare constructing a building and magic as similar. One follows real life - you simply have to start with a foundation and then construct it floor by floor.
Magic is not real life and there's nothing outside you suspension of disbelief that says you can't learn more "magic" types. In fact, what "magic" has been practiced throughout the ages of humanity have _never_ been restrictive there was nothing preventing you from doing it all and the same holds true in a lot of fictional universes. I suggest you expand your knowledge on this subject a wee tad.

The game is made to include all magic and a lot of cultures would suffer serious penalties if they couldn't jump between the tomes, because it arbitrarily infuriates some people that want it restricted.
You don't like it? Play with mods that restrict tomes. Problem solved.

Magic in this game is the "science" in most other games. It's the knowledge of your civilisation, and knowledge is very much like a building. You need the foundation before you build up to higher levels. If you didn't study mathematics at school, it's crazy to go on to study higher mathematics at university. This game allows you to learn high magic at school, study teleportation at university and then receive your PHD in the dark arts. It's meaningless madness.

[Professor H. Farnsworth]

Originally posted by Flickmann:

Originally posted by Professor H. Farnsworth:

You can't even remotely begin to compare constructing a building and magic as similar. One follows real life - you simply have to start with a foundation and then construct it floor by floor.
Magic is not real life and there's nothing outside you suspension of disbelief that says you can't learn more "magic" types. In fact, what "magic" has been practiced throughout the ages of humanity have _never_ been restrictive there was nothing preventing you from doing it all and the same holds true in a lot of fictional universes. I suggest you expand your knowledge on this subject a wee tad.

The game is made to include all magic and a lot of cultures would suffer serious penalties if they couldn't jump between the tomes, because it arbitrarily infuriates some people that want it restricted.
You don't like it? Play with mods that restrict tomes. Problem solved.

Magic in this game is the "science" in most other games. It's the knowledge of your civilisation, and knowledge is very much like a building. You need the foundation before you build up to higher levels. If you didn't study mathematics at school, it's crazy to go on to study higher mathematics at university. This game allows you to learn high magic at school, study teleportation at university and then receive your PHD in the dark arts. It's meaningless madness.

Again, no, that is you ascribing logic to a part of a fantasy world in which logic simply cannot be applied. Likely because that's what you're used to from the limited video games you have played - I can tell you there are plenty of fictional novels and games in which this is not the case :).
Nor has this ever been the case for "magic" in our world. There was _nothing_ preventing Witches, Wizards and so on to dabble in it all other than their ethics and morals - not that magic is real of course.
If you must view it that way, your foundation is the research itself and each tome is a single structure in and off itself separate from each other. Learning two from a lower tier is enough to understand the basic of the next tier.

I get that not everyone may like that, I get that it may break their suspension of belief. However, there are excellent mods that prevents this. The game is designed this way, because quite frankly most cultures depends on it in some shape or form - especially as most Stability buildings are locked to Order tomes.
That and you could always just.. Limit yourself of course. No one tells you that you MUST research everything.

[Professor H. Farnsworth]

Originally posted by Flickmann:

Originally posted by Professor H. Farnsworth:

Again, no, that is you ascribing logic to a part of a fantasy world in which logic simply cannot be applied. Likely because that's what you're used to from the limited video games you have played - I can tell you there are plenty of fictional novels and games in which this is not the case :).
Nor has this ever been the case for "magic" in our world. There was _nothing_ preventing Witches, Wizards and so on to dabble in it all other than their ethics and morals - not that magic is real of course.
If you must view it that way, your foundation is the research itself and each tome is a single structure in and off itself separate from each other. Learning two from a lower tier is enough to understand the basic of the next tier.

I get that not everyone may like that, I get that it may break their suspension of belief. However, there are excellent mods that prevents this. The game is designed this way, because quite frankly most cultures depends on it in some shape or form - especially as most Stability buildings are locked to Order tomes.
That and you could always just.. Limit yourself of course. No one tells you that you MUST research everything.

It's not about "ascribing logic," we're talking about how the game mechanic works. Just because other games and novels have nonsensical worldbuilding doesn't make it acceptable here.
The entire point of the argument is that you don't have to research the two previous tomes to advance to the next tier.

Anyway, I can tell you enjoy sniffing your own farts so I think talking about this any further is pointless.

But you are trying to ascribe logic to a game world that does not exist beyond being mere pixels on a screen. A game world that is made up. Anything goes. That's the whole point of making ♥♥♥♥ up.

Just because other games and novels have nonsensical limitations in a make-belief world, doesn't mean that it is acceptable here. Do you see how it works both ways?

As I have said, there is a mod that requires you to have X affinity in order to research the next tier starting at tier 2 and if I remember correctly there's also one that restricts tomes (like T5) much earlier.

All it would have taken you is a wee search on the workshop. Problem le solved.
However, you last comment makes it blatantly clear that you can't handle anything outside your own little echo-chamber so.. There's that I suppose.