Age of Wonders 4

Age of Wonders 4

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Chaos and Materium vs the rest
Does anyone else feel like Chaos and Materium are the best overall affinities? I don't mean the culture (although Barbarian and Industrious are insanely good) but the tomes and specialities you gain from empire skills. Materium just lets you build your cities so quickly and also make tons of gold doing it. While Chaos lets you play very agressively, even early on and snowball. Meanwhile Order seems to be the worst, because Order strongly focusses on free cities and vassals. Vassals are good, but Order doesn't do much else than boost vassals and vassal-related mechanics. Meanwhile Materium the last Materium skill reduces unit upkeep by up to 50%, basically allowing for double the amount of armies.

Mythic and Shadow are a extremely powerful in the lategame aswell but take a while to get good syngergy. Nature is good if you know which biomes the map features, I guess. If there is no water, barely any provinces for farms and such then it is useless.

What are your thoughts?
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Showing 46-60 of 72 comments
Foolswalkin May 8, 2023 @ 7:13am 
Originally posted by Chikanuk:
Materum, except few tomes feels pretty bad to me. Especially stone and T5 tome. Same with materium tree - many of it bonuses just small. Industrial culture too - its great at defence, but it have ONLY defence, and if enemy have big alpha strike or way to remove your buffs- you suddenly suck at defence and have no real healer. And really suffer from having T3 shield unit. Ofc it can be solved by tomes... But still, its an issue.

Industrial unit weakness I agree with, compared to, say, the straightforward power of Feudal. I think it's to balance out the fact that Scout Prospecting is bananas in a builder setup, though. The kind of relative economic turn advantage you can crank out with something like Industrial/Adept Settlers/Wonder Architects/Tome of Beasts, snapping up powerful low-hanging Builder fruit in the Empire development tree while spreading Scouts and cities far and wide, is no joke.
Originally posted by CrUsHeR:
Originally posted by Vegetable Vampire:
You are throwing the word "free" around a lot, while at the same time saying everything with Astral costs mana. Summons, those that are not summoned by other units in combat, also cost mana. Mana is a resource just like gold.

The Wildspeaker gets a free combat summon. Literally free of charge.

So does the Houndmaster and a lot of other units. That is not unique to Nature.
RodHull May 8, 2023 @ 8:16am 
Originally posted by Astasia:
Order might feel better if they fix vassals.

This

I think they all seem fairly balanced except order which focuses on vassals but vassals are awful currently.
Grognerd May 8, 2023 @ 8:24am 
Somewhat opposing viewpoint from a popular YouTuber:

"Here is my extremely hard line bias: Chaos is the S Tier, Nature is the A Tier, Order and Astral are both B Tier, and Materium is C Tier ... Shadow is kinda meh."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6MlEUakdK8
Last edited by Grognerd; May 8, 2023 @ 8:25am
Originally posted by Grognerd:
Somewhat opposing viewpoint from a popular YouTuber:

"Here is my extremely hard line bias: Chaos is the S Tier, Nature is the A Tier, Order and Astral are both B Tier, and Materium is C Tier ... Shadow is kinda meh."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6MlEUakdK8

YouTubers make content first and foremost for said content. I doubt that guy played every tome several times to be able to make a precise tier list in just a few days. And if it isn't meant to be precise, then there is no point in a tier list.
ACS36 May 8, 2023 @ 9:12am 
They're all viable. But there are many nodes on every branch that are simply not worth taking at all. There are clear cut winners on each branch that are very beneficial depending on your needs.
Zoggy May 8, 2023 @ 11:17am 
I would argue order is the most powerful if more situational- if you can get good rally of lieges units and actively make every city conquered vassals it can snowball your economy - also reduces unit upkeep via faithful and Knightly orders is a must have capstone -you have to focus down order line but its very powerful. if your having issues with mana for high order focus player increasing city stability +CONVENT from tome of faith helps a lot early on.
Grognerd May 8, 2023 @ 12:18pm 
Originally posted by Vegetable Vampire:
Originally posted by Grognerd:
Somewhat opposing viewpoint from a popular YouTuber:

"Here is my extremely hard line bias: Chaos is the S Tier, Nature is the A Tier, Order and Astral are both B Tier, and Materium is C Tier ... Shadow is kinda meh."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6MlEUakdK8

YouTubers make content first and foremost for said content. I doubt that guy played every tome several times to be able to make a precise tier list in just a few days. And if it isn't meant to be precise, then there is no point in a tier list.

He and other content creators did have a pre-release copy, for about a month prior to release. So I'm guessing this has been in the works a while, waiting for the embargo to be lifted.
Majber May 8, 2023 @ 12:29pm 
Originally posted by yuzhonglu:
Originally posted by CrUsHeR:
Nature is pretty absurd in the early to mid game.


Tome of Roots, cast that living vine spell - the enemy T1-3 units are gonna spend the next one or two turns killing the vines. Your ranged units don't even get attacked, so basically no need for melee/tank units.

This is also partially due to the "pinned" mechanics, as their units cannot ignore the vines even if they wanted. Even killed a T4 demon unit today with a couple of basic units and 2x vine cast, just hilarious. Everyone walked out with >95% hp.

Then the tome of beasts, get summons as free cannon fodder. Get the materium capstone skill for T3 elemental summon, too. For some reason the AI always prioritizes killing the combat summons first.

Affinity upgrades are just so strong. +5 food from farms, double your food output? And food = population = everything else. But if you also play e.g. Barbarian and get the nature tomes, you get a ton of food and massive draft. And build T2 spiders in your city.



Then compare that to playing e.g. Mystic with Astral. Everything costs mana, and yes you get buildings for some little bit of extra mana, but you get very little of everything else instead.

Horrible province improvements, like anything adding +3 mana for adjacent conduits? Compared to something giving +3 mana and +3 food for adjacent forest tiles.


Balance is totally FUBAR right now. Much of the game feels like an early beta version.

Thanks to transmute metal you can turn all that mana into gold food and production. 1 Mana = .75 gold, food AND production. It becomes the most cost efficient resource to mass.

Of course that's tier 3 tome.
How does it work, do you need to recast it every turn to generate resources that way?
Astasia May 8, 2023 @ 12:49pm 
Originally posted by Majber:
How does it work, do you need to recast it every turn to generate resources that way?

No, you cast it once on a city and it lasts until you cancel it. For the duration it sets the city's mana output to 0 and converts each 1 mana the city would have earned into 0.75 of each of the listed resources. It's a very strong spell, especially if you go heavy astral with mystic and just grab that materium tome. If you are heavy materium it's less useful as your mana output wont be that high and you probably can't afford removing the mana from one or more of your cities.
Last edited by Astasia; May 8, 2023 @ 12:50pm
glythe May 8, 2023 @ 5:57pm 
Originally posted by yuzhonglu:
On the affinities tree, Chaos and Astral are the best. Hands down.

Nature is stupidly strong long term.

Adept settlers is probably the best starting trait if you end up being able to get the green affinity for -50% food required to grab tiles. The trait lowers food for growth by -25% for a -75% total when you get both.

Purple magic affinity to give you map hacks on all army positions is literally priceless (considering the AI always has this).


My favorite ability in blue is actually first turn casting which is only 80 affinity.

Mastor Masons and rite of Wealth are also really strong in yellow.

Red has a cool end tier ability but is worthless when there are spelljammers everywhere.

And there is nothing that makes me say "wow" in the order tree.



For the way I want to play I will always pick wonder architects and Adept settlers. I think AoW was always fun with "more wonders" so I always play with lots of wonders on the map.
=(FGR)=Sentinel May 9, 2023 @ 1:23am 
I think it depends on what you want to do.

Materium, Shadow, and Nature are surprisingly good for if you're playing in the underground or a map with a lot of uninhabitable territory since they can convert uninhabitable provinces (including tunnels in bedrock or provinces in lava and underground lakes with even a single ground tile) into inhabitable regions. Nature is obviously the best for this if you aren't arctic adapted, but Materium's ability to make any region able to hold a quarry can be useful for either opening up a new route through to enemy territory or turn a city into an economic powerhouse.

Astral is more powerful for a tech build or pure magic due to one of the empire abilities reducing the cost of one research option every research cycle, while one of their special improvements increases casting points. More importantly, Astral is a pretty good anti-magic tree since one of the T1 tomes just gives you 2 resistance towards three different non-physical damage types. Materium, Astral, and the Industrial culture are probably immensely powerful for a defensive build since the Industrial culture's T3 shield unit can benefit from racial transformations that boost their durability (unlike Materium's iron golems) as well as unit enchantments provided by Materium and Astral.

While there's a Chaos/Order and Shadow/Nature dichotomy, I'd honestly argue that Chaos and Shadow are better counters for each other due to the fact that Chaos focuses fairly heavily on pyromancy while Shadow's damage type is frost. This is a big deal since their major transformations (demonkin and wightborn/wight form respectively) make races with that transformation more vulnerable to the opposing alignment's damage type.

Nature is laughably powerful for expansion if only because Adept Settlers on its own is enough to grab the first unlock early on, which means new cities start with three population (four if you build a work camp) as soon as you found them. Again, combine with light Materium and you can get quick outposts with palisades, quick city founding, and 2 free pops in every city you found.

Order is fairly weak due to the reliance on vassals for the abilities it unlocks, though the fact that it gives a spell jammer that blocks all other province improvements from being razed is pretty noteworthy.

Regarding large cities, though, Chaos and Astral do have the noteworthy quirk of allowing a single city to have up to three teleporters that are made better by an Astral empire unlock. This gives them a powerful synergy with the first point (terraforming the underground) since it allows a single city to spread into multiple chambers if placed properly and still be able to move armies through its domain without much difficulty.

Shadow isn't something I've played with at all, so I can't comment on it.
Last edited by =(FGR)=Sentinel; May 9, 2023 @ 1:28am
Gaius May 9, 2023 @ 1:32am 
Originally posted by Vegetable Vampire:
Does anyone else feel like Chaos and Materium are the best overall affinities? I don't mean the culture (although Barbarian and Industrious are insanely good) but the tomes and specialities you gain from empire skills. Materium just lets you build your cities so quickly and also make tons of gold doing it. While Chaos lets you play very agressively, even early on and snowball. Meanwhile Order seems to be the worst, because Order strongly focusses on free cities and vassals. Vassals are good, but Order doesn't do much else than boost vassals and vassal-related mechanics. Meanwhile Materium the last Materium skill reduces unit upkeep by up to 50%, basically allowing for double the amount of armies.

Mythic and Shadow are a extremely powerful in the lategame aswell but take a while to get good syngergy. Nature is good if you know which biomes the map features, I guess. If there is no water, barely any provinces for farms and such then it is useless.

What are your thoughts?

I think things are surprisingly balanced as long as you play in a way that makes use of most bonuses. Chaos for raiding and pillaging, Materium for large citis with good production, Nature for quick expansion, Order for a political match where your vassals give you GREAT units in large numbers via the Lieges mechanic, Shadow for subterfuge and huge debuffs (or undead armies if you go that path), mystic for full summon stacks and OP combat magic in general.
Beje May 9, 2023 @ 1:48am 
I think Materium as a whole is quite good but I wouldn't call it the strongest, not by a long shot. While the research tree is fine, most of the Materium tomes just aren't that good I believe, underwhelming even. If the tomes were any better then maybe.

Nature is one of the strongest I think since it's just universally good, regardless of what you're trying to build. An affinity that can easily slot into any build and bring a lot of value is top tier in my books. Chaos is also strong, but only if you're playing aggresively so I feel it's not as universally appliable (razing cities and pillaging bonuses are not that useful if you're not going for a Domination victory) but it's very strong in the right build.
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Date Posted: May 7, 2023 @ 4:17pm
Posts: 72