How is declining an Alliance an evil act?

[PeaceMaker]

I am allied with two partners. I fully hoped to support them both. However, my first Alliance partner needs me to join him in a war, then my 2nd alliance partner (not as long alliance) wants me to join her at the SAME TIME against a different faction. I do not like being in a war on two fronts, I'm just not that powerful enough.

Oh but telling her "No, sorry," is an evil act. Yea, I get her getting mad at me and relations dropping, but it isn't evil.

They need to consider CONTEXT more in diplomacy.

[Midas]

Because you've gone to the trouble of forging a relationship to the point that you're on the brink of basically being totally unified, and then said "nah, you're on your own".

[Sipher]

how is this supposed to be not evil? If you join an alliance with someone then they expect that in a time of war they have your back! But if you just abandon them in the time they need most (even if its for an logical reason from your perspective, like having to fight on two fronts or having to go to war vs a faction that is to strong for you to deal with at the moment) its simply betraying your words and other factions should indeed see you as an not trustworthy empire what is shown ingame as beeing an evil option.

[PeaceMaker]

Originally posted by Midas:

Because you've gone to the trouble of forging a relationship to the point that you're on the brink of basically being totally unified, and then said "nah, you're on your own".

Not evil.

Originally posted by andrej:

how is this supposed to be not evil? If you join an alliance with someone then they expect that in a time of war they have your back! But if you just abandon them in the time they need most (even if its for an logical reason from your perspective, like having to fight on two fronts or having to go to war vs a faction that is to strong for you to deal with at the moment) its simply betraying your words and other factions should indeed see you as an not trustworthy empire what is shown ingame as beeing an evil option.

Not evil. Did you guys even read what I wrote?

Stop with the mindless fanboyism and THINK.

[Sipher]

you just sound like you are just an evil person doing evil things and dont want to accept it.

[The Former]

The unfortunate reality is that when you forge an alliance, you're required by treaty to support your ally in a war. Not doing so is an evil act. Imagine if America had been allied with both Britain and Germany in 1944. Britain begs for support (Germany doesn't) and America says "No thanks, we don't wanna piss Germany off."

That's what's happening here. Your intention is to not turn on your ally, but in order to uphold that intention, you have to go against a formal agreement to give military support to your ally. Basically you're doing something evil to one side or the other no matter how you play this; it's an unfortunate Catch 22 you've found yourself in.

Edit: I totally misread, it's not even as bad as all that. You're literally rejecting your formal agreement with an ally for no reason other than inconvenience to yourself, which is 100% evil. This is more like you being allied with Britain and China and saying "Nah good luck Britain, we're already helping China fight Hirohito."

[Midas]

Originally posted by PeaceMaker:

Originally posted by Midas:

Because you've gone to the trouble of forging a relationship to the point that you're on the brink of basically being totally unified, and then said "nah, you're on your own".

Not evil.

Originally posted by andrej:

how is this supposed to be not evil? If you join an alliance with someone then they expect that in a time of war they have your back! But if you just abandon them in the time they need most (even if its for an logical reason from your perspective, like having to fight on two fronts or having to go to war vs a faction that is to strong for you to deal with at the moment) its simply betraying your words and other factions should indeed see you as an not trustworthy empire what is shown ingame as beeing an evil option.

Not evil. Did you guys even read what I wrote?

Stop with the mindless fanboyism and THINK.

You basically want to be able to only look out for your own ass, that's not how defensive pacts and alliances work. If you don't want to help your allies, don't make allies.

[Shadowing]

It is backstabbing political manuvering, and formal agreement violation. It is evil becouse you have bound yourself to help them, but broke that bond for no reason. This marks you as backstabber and untrustworthy pweron.

[blackhand_lost]

I think you miss the meaning of "alliance". You betrayed these alliances by refusing to fulfill your direct obligations. There isn't much space for context here

Imo the only situation where context should be taken into account is when one of your allies declares war on another of your allies, and you're forced to join one of them. Although I doubt they worked on this specific situation

[Coin]

Simple, if you decline an alliance by a race it means you're a phobic bigot who hates that race. Which is evil.

[=(FGR)=Sentinel]

It's important to note that, in this game, good and evil seem to be determined by more than just charitable actions. "Good" alignment, for instance, leans heavily towards honor and upholding agreements, while the easiest way to become "Evil" is to burn down the provinces of cities during a war (in spite of destroying a nation's production helping to end the war quicker), resettling a city's inhabitants to another race, and burning cities down. Not doing any evil acts for a period will actually cause your alignment to increase up to a certain point. It's actually because of this that you can have Chaos-aligned factions that are good while Order-aligned factions can end up being evil.

Breaking or not honoring an alliance is, by the game's interpretation, an evil act due to fact that it's not an honorable action, much like declaring a war without proper justification would be. In fact, the opposite is also true: in certain situations honoring the alliance or declaring a war against a target with sufficient justification will be considered a good act and increase your alignment. The simple fact of the matter is that almost all honorable acts can increase your alignment, while almost all dishonorable acts (including abandoning an ally when they need your help) decrease it. The game is fairly consistent about that.

[Black Hammer]

You're not "declining" the alliance, you're accepting the alliance then pulling out of it when it's convenient for you.

Which is not the point of an alliance, and makes you an oathbreaker.

[The Former]

Originally posted by Black Hammer:

You're not "declining" the alliance, you're accepting the alliance then pulling out of it when it's convenient for you.

Which is not the point of an alliance, and makes you an oathbreaker.

This. "Oathbreaker" is good language here. It'd be different if it were just a personal friend asking "Hey buddy, could I get some help?" But this is an alliance we're talking about. You literally swore to defend them.

[ethorin101]

Originally posted by blackhand_lost:

I think you miss the meaning of "alliance". You betrayed these alliances by refusing to fulfill your direct obligations. There isn't much space for context here

Imo the only situation where context should be taken into account is when one of your allies declares war on another of your allies, and you're forced to join one of them. Although I doubt they worked on this specific situation

Actually, I've had something really neat happen in the one game I was playing with lot's of players, I was working on getting a few allies, and after I had Defensive Pact with two, they declared Friendship at each other and then started climbing up the treaty tiers between each other.

If you find two people before they've had a chance to find each other, and can get positive relations with both ahead of them finding each other or you introducing them, they do seem to like each other reasonably.(might not work if they are too opposite in affinity and alignment)

[Evalis]

Originally posted by blackhand_lost:

I think you miss the meaning of "alliance". You betrayed these alliances by refusing to fulfill your direct obligations. There isn't much space for context here

Imo the only situation where context should be taken into account is when one of your allies declares war on another of your allies, and you're forced to join one of them. Although I doubt they worked on this specific situation

They didn't actually think of this. You end up becoming evil either way, for either breaking the alliance by refusing the call to war, or by breaking your treaty with the party being declared on. I don't think when this happens either option should be considered an evil act.

I would say to make sure to pick your allies carefully so that they are not just aligned with you but with your other allies. The problem is that affinity penalties can change as the AI conducts research, meaning two allies you had could end hating each other, or them hating you.

I wish there was a way to request the AI to declare friendships with one another, like they can do with you.

[messlinger76]

Originally posted by PeaceMaker:

I am allied with two partners. I fully hoped to support them both. However, my first Alliance partner needs me to join him in a war, then my 2nd alliance partner (not as long alliance) wants me to join her at the SAME TIME against a different faction. I do not like being in a war on two fronts, I'm just not that powerful enough.

Oh but telling her "No, sorry," is an evil act. Yea, I get her getting mad at me and relations dropping, but it isn't evil.

They need to consider CONTEXT more in diplomacy.

Yeah I think they kind of make it a bit too strict for the game. Need to let up a bit in some situations.
I had a similar annoying problem. I was friendly with two different factions who then declared war with each other. One of them asked me to go to war with the other. I declined and lost all my order and went back to neutral. I've run across a few of these "you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't" order/chaos scenarios.
P.S. Your "fanboy" comment is spot on.