Transformations

[ethorin101]

So, I was thinking about this as I was considering a possible tome route... and then I realized, Materium has all of three transforms and none are major...

And then I started going down a bit of a rabbit hole... so like, Chaos has FIVE transforms including one major, with at least one transform in all of T1 to T4, and two in T4 itself, Nature has four(1 in each tier to T4), and one of them is major, Shadow has three, 1 in T2 and two in T3, one major, making it the earliest major unlockable, Astral has three, one major...

And then there's Order, and Order has a whopping grand total of TWO, Anointed People in T3 Tome of Sanc, and the Major Angelize in the T4 Tome Exaltation...

There are 20 transforms in this game across six affinities, and a quarter are Chaos. And if you aren't playing Chaos exactly, it's not even hard to wind up with a totally reasonable path to 0 transformations. Chaos, and Chaos alone, means that if you get a tome of every tier you WILL have at least one Transform. For such a big part of the game, that's supposed to be such a major part of how we play... transforms are actually kinda really limited and scattered in a bit of an odd way to my mind.

But also... like... the Chaos Transforms are also just cooler than most of the rest. Like, Shadow has Joy Siphoners which is pretty cool(kinda, it is just numbers go up, but you do need to play around it to really notice), and Supergrowth offers an extra retaliation, but otherwise they are basically all just "have some numbers", outside of Chaos I think the most interesting ones are Earthkin and Leafskin offering mobility and concealment in usually difficult terrain. But in Chaos, oh, in Chaos there's some really wild ones, like Reveler's Heart, which gets you delicious looking hooves and the often really interesting "have more morale from positive changes"(neat combo with Joy Siphoners), And Vessels of Chaos is the wildest damage bonus, "have +10% for each negative status on the target", that it caps at 30% is a biiiit sad to me, but like, it also pretty much exemplifies why I love the chaos transforms so much, they really demand you lean into the playstyle they support, instead of "here, have +3 spirit res and +3 status res, you're Anointed". Rather than just give you some numbers, they say "now play around me". Not all of even the Chaos transforms are so delightful as Reveler's and Vessels, but man, those two are just so much more interesting than the rest.(Also Demonkin is just better than Angelize, still get flight but you don't get twice as many weaknesses as resistances).

...Honestly not sure how I'm ever going to convince myself to go for anything without at least a bit of demon taint now that I've gone and laid out why I had so much fun that first game I played and have had so much trouble finding fun since...

[fiendishdevil]

Thematically it makes sense. Chaos self mutilation/self evolution. The other affinities have other things to balance out the lack of race transformations. Order has a ton of city boosting enchantments and also heals for example.

[Veg]

boy thats a lot of words.

[Mors Avis]

Wall of Text crits you for 2000 damage.

[👁]

Shortened Version: There aren't enough transformations outside of the Chaos books, and too many in the Chaos books.

[ethorin101]

Originally posted by 👁:

Shortened Version: There aren't enough transformations outside of the Chaos books, and too many in the Chaos books.

Actually, I think there could be more transforms literally everywhere...

I also think right now Chaos has the only Transforms that genuinely change how I want to play the game and think about combat.

[Lotos]

More transformations in dlcs that's for sure

[wistful_dread]

AoW4 is very much following the Paradox formula of making a base game, and really expanding with the DLC. We already know that the Dragon DLC will bring dragon transformations (maybe order/materium), Empire/Ashes will bring back the more advanced tech (definately order/materium), Primal Fury is likely more beast/fey (nature) transforms, and Eldritch Realms is otherwordly (shadow/astral) transforms.

Plus, we'll likely see a LOT of Tome mods over the game's lifespan. I can already expect a nature-bug tome, and a shadow-spider tranformation coming.

[EthanT]

The Materium ones are great, you get lots of defense and resist from it. Theyre a bit subtle with just some rocky/gold/iron patches on skin but they work great stat wise with the units youre going to spam as materium anyway

[Fendelphi]

I have yet to use Chaos actually.

If I have better alternatives to the Chaos Major transformation(for my faction), I will be a bit less inclined to take any Chaos tomes at all, even if the minor ones could be beneficial. Similarly, if my intended playstyle does not revolve around conquest and aggression, and I want to work with Order Affinity factions, I will be less inclined to pick up Chaos Tomes, since Order based factions dislike Chaos.

Race transformations are good and all, but if the investment(various tomes/affinity in that direction) does not match the playstyle you want for your faction, you have a lot of other options beside chaos.
And race transformation only work with your race. So to utilize it fully, you need to rely on your own race(and not summons or spell casting).


For instance, Materium has no Major Transformation(although Goldtouched is about as powerful as a Major one, with a +2 Resistance and increased income for your faction), but it has a lot of "non-aggressive" economy boosters, as well as access to elementals(immune to bleed, poison and diseased, while still getting morale) and Golems(immune to all status and morale).
They also have one of the strongest hybrid units(IMO) in the Transmuter(attacks Sunder Defense while Bolstering a nearby ally. Petrify AoE as well), and one of the strongest archer units(Zephyr Archer).
And they have a tier 5 Combat Summon(which is awesome, as it cost no upkeep of any kind).
Combine that with a bunch of unit enchantments(does not care about race, only unit type) and you are golden(ha).

Now you "could" combine that with Chaos for a more aggressive style and lean into Fire spells and effects a lot, but you do not have to.

[archangel_alpha]

Yesterday i done my first map with materium + order dwarfs (something like 80/20) and even with no major transformation materium is extremely strong. Summary +3 armor and +2 resist from transformations, and +30% crit chance from buff spell turn your units into terminators. Also noticed useful armor-melting aoe spell with nice damage.

[Gaius]

Well, to be honest most are just + something damage, the better early one is +20% damage becoming tiny, and it's disgraceful for warrior themed factions (other than Goblins and Skaven, of course).

Originally posted by archangel_alpha:

Yesterday i done my first map with materium + order dwarfs (something like 80/20) and even with no major transformation materium is extremely strong. Summary +3 armor and +2 resist from transformations, and +30% crit chance from buff spell turn your units into terminators. Also noticed useful armor-melting aoe spell with nice damage.

Yup, I just finished a 100% materium run on campaign map 4 and it is surprisingly offensive, didn't miss other Magic schools at all, at least if we're talking about buffs and nukes.

[ethorin101]

The problem isn't about the power, all of the transforms are strong, it's about "does this change how I want to play or is it just 'have extra stats'".

[Astasia]

The major transformation for Materium is the draconic transformation coming with the first DLC.