Meta Progression Unlocks are too grindy

[fiendishdevil]

1st game win gets me to level 4, 2nd game win gets me to level 7. Not sure if exp requirement goes up the higher level you go or if every 500-1000 exp basically gives you 3 levels. But this is way too much of a grind considering that each game takes several hours. Unless I cheese military victory with close spawn 2 player maps, I foresee unlocking all the non-cosmetic meta progression will take 100's of hours.

[Carighan]

Well to be fair, this also isn't really a game most of the core audience put down after 20-30 hours of play. More 500-3000. So the slow progression does make a certain amount of sense.

[fiendishdevil]

They should have front loaded all the non-cosmetic meta game unlocks to be achievable by level 20. It just feels silly playing knowing that there are traits and origins I would rather be playing with that I have to spend 10's of hours to unlock.

[sandman25dcsss]

If you play games just to unlock everything, probably this game is not for you. You are supposed to enjoy every map here.

[Butcher]

Originally posted by fiendishdevil:

They should have front loaded all the non-cosmetic meta game unlocks to be achievable by level 20. It just feels silly playing knowing that there are traits and origins I would rather be playing with that I have to spend 10's of hours to unlock.

That is good, isn't it? You now have some sort of goal to look for: unlocking trait you like. That can extend your gametime compared to the case if you had everything from the start.

[fiendishdevil]

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

If you play games just to unlock everything, probably this game is not for you. You are supposed to enjoy every map here.

I'm sorry, but they designed a game that heavily focuses on sandbox 4x gameplay and lock away some 15+ origins and traits some with very unique game play styles behind a massive grind wall.

This game is definitely for me and I like it a lot and I think it's fair for me to criticize this decision they made.

The fact that you are incentivized to win maps fast to exp level your pantheon means that there is a poor game design mechanic and exp curve that needs review.

[fiendishdevil]

Originally posted by Butcher:

Originally posted by fiendishdevil:

They should have front loaded all the non-cosmetic meta game unlocks to be achievable by level 20. It just feels silly playing knowing that there are traits and origins I would rather be playing with that I have to spend 10's of hours to unlock.

That is good, isn't it? You now have some sort of goal to look for: unlocking trait you like. That can extend your gametime compared to the case if you had everything from the start.

I would rather have all options available to me from the get go (or easy or meaningful to unlock) and strive to achieve cosmetic pixels instead for flair.

This is an argument of the same vein that can be made for a lot of games in discussing P2W vs cosmetic.

Hypothetical: If they released a DLC $4.99 booster pack that instantly unlocked all the non-cosmetic progressions, I wonder how many people would buy it and if people defending the current pantheon system would be outraged? I would personally buy it.

My point is that the grind wall behind pantheon non-cosmetic unlocks does not feel meaningful at all especially given how the current EXP to time played ratio is for a STANDARD game. Maybe 10x the EXP rates for non-win objectives and make playing standard games feel more meaningful.

[Ruinous]

The SpiffingBrit vid showed how to cheese the pantheon unlocks, if you really wanted to.

[Butcher]

Originally posted by fiendishdevil:

Originally posted by Butcher:

That is good, isn't it? You now have some sort of goal to look for: unlocking trait you like. That can extend your gametime compared to the case if you had everything from the start.

I would rather have all options available to me from the get go (or easy or meaningful to unlock) and strive to achieve cosmetic pixels instead for flair.

This is an argument of the same vein that can be made for a lot of games in discussing P2W vs cosmetic.

Hypothetical: If they released a DLC $4.99 booster pack that instantly unlocked all the non-cosmetic progressions, I wonder how many people would buy it and if people defending the current pantheon system would be outraged? I would personally buy it.

My point is that the grind wall behind pantheon non-cosmetic unlocks does not feel meaningful at all especially given how the current EXP to time played ratio is for a STANDARD game. Maybe 10x the EXP rates for non-win objectives and make playing standard games feel more meaningful.

But you are not paying. This is a trick for extending game time.

Take Deep Rock Galactic for example. You have basic weapons, but upgrades require resources, new weapons require assignment completion and overclocks are RNG limited by weekly deep dives. That is all to extend game time. If everything was open from the start people would leave much sooner. So you got carrot on the stick.

[Xerberus86]

Originally posted by fiendishdevil:

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

If you play games just to unlock everything, probably this game is not for you. You are supposed to enjoy every map here.

I'm sorry, but they designed a game that heavily focuses on sandbox 4x gameplay and lock away some 15+ origins and traits some with very unique game play styles behind a massive grind wall.

This game is definitely for me and I like it a lot and I think it's fair for me to criticize this decision they made.

The fact that you are incentivized to win maps fast to exp level your pantheon means that there is a poor game design mechanic and exp curve that needs review.

i think its fine, just get over it.

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by fiendishdevil:

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

If you play games just to unlock everything, probably this game is not for you. You are supposed to enjoy every map here.

I'm sorry, but they designed a game that heavily focuses on sandbox 4x gameplay and lock away some 15+ origins and traits some with very unique game play styles behind a massive grind wall.

This game is definitely for me and I like it a lot and I think it's fair for me to criticize this decision they made.

The fact that you are incentivized to win maps fast to exp level your pantheon means that there is a poor game design mechanic and exp curve that needs review.

You missed my point. I have 1.5k hours in aow3 and it does not have any unlocks. You are incentivized to try all possible combinations and have fun, unlocks are just a nice bonus.

[fiendishdevil]

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

Originally posted by fiendishdevil:

I'm sorry, but they designed a game that heavily focuses on sandbox 4x gameplay and lock away some 15+ origins and traits some with very unique game play styles behind a massive grind wall.

This game is definitely for me and I like it a lot and I think it's fair for me to criticize this decision they made.

The fact that you are incentivized to win maps fast to exp level your pantheon means that there is a poor game design mechanic and exp curve that needs review.

You missed my point. I have 1.5k hours in aow3 and it does not have any unlocks. You are incentivized to try all possible conbinations and have fun, unlocks are just a nice bonus to give you more combos.

No, you're missing the point. The amount of grind for unlocks shouldn't be game impacting - cosmetic unlocks are fine and dandy. But it's a very huge turn off that in order to get access to everything in this sandbox game, you have to grind.

Just knowing that there is an EFFICIENT way to grind means that the game system is broken. The game is not respecting your time if the exp curves are off and there is an efficient way to unlock traits. It really needs review.

Seriously though, the fact that if they were to slap a $4.99 price tag on meta progress unlocks (non-cosmetic) and there would actually be people to buy it means that the system is broken.

[Elindos Phar & Family]

To be honest the fact you mention that "if there was a DLC to purchase the progression unlocks you will do it" means you actually favor P2W or Pay-to-progress as your favorable option.

This means you consider that you are entitled to receive that progression and "having it" rather than "having earned it". Just like you mention that for your curent gametime you should have it.

Same goes in F2P games, there will always be players staying free or almost free and players paying instead.

In that case, your opinion about game progression with normal gametime cannot be appreciated the same way. This kind of metric is not your kind of metric.

It is good to have this feedback you send especially on the other side about "proper game options missing".

But on that I agree with sandman: the pleasure is in the game, and I feel the progression system is an additional reward to make the experience more unique the next time and have something to look forward to.

I also agree with you on a few things: if it can be cheesed, then maybe there is an issue to fix in it. Maybe more scores for better games, less cheesing. But so far this allows people feeling entitled to more progression to cheat at it if they prefer to do so.

It's far from ideal, but considering the taste of every player about it, I think it's a good middleground for now.

[MOITA]

No previous age of wonders had unlockables. I guess you can just try and forget they exist. It shouldn't be the focus, but the match itself.

[Styles]

Originally posted by fiendishdevil:

1st game win gets me to level 4, 2nd game win gets me to level 7. Not sure if exp requirement goes up the higher level you go or if every 500-1000 exp basically gives you 3 levels. But this is way too much of a grind considering that each game takes several hours. Unless I cheese military victory with close spawn 2 player maps, I foresee unlocking all the non-cosmetic meta progression will take 100's of hours.

Go and play Cod if you want quick gratification.

[wizard]

Originally posted by Carighan:

Well to be fair, this also isn't really a game most of the core audience put down after 20-30 hours of play. More 500-3000. So the slow progression does make a certain amount of sense.

dude just GRIND for 500-3000 hours, trust me dude, its totally worth it and easy. just grind it, its totally fair you know.