Age of Wonders 4 feels more like Planetfall 2

[lastarchon]

After five or six games I feel AoW4 is more a sequel to Planetfall than to AoW3. I have more than a thousand hours across AoW 1-3 and Planetfall, so I do understand the games and the series has been a tent-pole of my gaming career, even back to the spiritual grandparent of this series, Master of Magic (1994).

Aside from using the same engine and map as Planetfall (and I like the map of Planetfall/AoW4 much less than the painterly beauty of AoW 1-2-3) my main concern is that AoW4's enchantments and racial transformations are essentially a spell-cast version of the unit equipment choices in Planetfall, and end up being a more streamlined version of Planetfall's unit progression system overall. However, Planetfall had far more distinct races and units which is where I feel AoW4 is really underperforming. The Devs might have felt Planetfall offered too many choices and there may be some sense to that -- but the loss of a core racial identity is something I'm feeling strongly and which is impacting my motivation to keep playing.

For me there is a quasi-roleplaying element that has been lost in AoW4, which turns out to have been an important and satisfying element for me. I realize I liked being elves, or orcs, or dwarves, from game-to-game, and the diversity of races helped keep things feeling fresher as a player.

In AoW4 I don't connect to the "Culture" I'm playing, as they lack a genuine sense of history, lore, and distinctiveness. After making a cosmetic race choice, that choice becomes basically meaningless as you rarely see your units up-close and the choice doesn't affect the game. I understand Cultures are meant to substitute for Races, but the substitution isn't executed in a way that substitutes satisfactorily or robustly enough.

Bottom line, the expansion packs slated for release don't seem to offer anything in the way of richer cultures, races, or units. Unlike AoW3 which became a nearly-perfect game through its DLCs, AoW4 almost seems dead-on-arrival as Planetfall was. I don't feel we have a great amount to look forward to on the DLCs, and the game seems like it'll essentially stay what it is now: Planetfall 2: Age of Wonders

[Багряный]

Originally posted by Butcher:

Originally posted by Anarchy Burger:

Thats some good cope right there

Fortnight must have 1,000,000 all time peak, must be better than all Aows together by that logic.

By that logic, Fortnight got his money and Planetfall didn't.

[Anarchy Burger]

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

Originally posted by lastarchon:

I am one of its original players at the very beginning.

Er, ok.

I (and many, many others) ALSO am one of the "original" players, having bought all previous AoW titles, upon release too.

AoW 4, while it could use some tweaks here and there, is an excellent successor to the series' legacy and further refines and improves upon both AoW3 and Planetfall in many ways.

No see only true AoW fans dont like AoW4 because true AoW fans blah blah blah

[Багряный]

Originally posted by Anarchy Burger:

Originally posted by DasaKamov:

Er, ok.

I (and many, many others) ALSO am one of the "original" players, having bought all previous AoW titles, upon release too.

AoW 4, while it could use some tweaks here and there, is an excellent successor to the series' legacy and further refines and improves upon both AoW3 and Planetfall in many ways.

No see only true AoW fans dont like AoW4 because true AoW fans blah blah blah

Age of Wonders all-time peak 86
Age of Wonders 2: The Wizard's Throne all-time peak 57

Oh yes, true fans are a force, of which there are a lot.

[Butcher]

Originally posted by Veresh1989:

Originally posted by Butcher:

Fortnight must have 1,000,000 all time peak, must be better than all Aows together by that logic.

By that logic, Fortnight got his money and Planetfall didn't.

Vampire survivors, idler with automatic shooting with horrible part stolen part asset graphics by slot machine dev got 77,000 peak
Stray, an actual walking simulator with the only redeeming quality being having catterino got 62,000 peak

Turn based strategies must go ahead and perish in peace, idlers and walking simulators is what modern gamer needs.

[Багряный]

Originally posted by Butcher:

Originally posted by Veresh1989:

By that logic, Fortnight got his money and Planetfall didn't.

Vampire survivors, idler with automatic shooting with horrible part stolen part asset graphics by slot machine dev got 77,000 peak
Stray, an actual walking simulator with the only redeeming quality being having catterino got 62,000 peak

Turn based strategies must go ahead and perish in peace, idlers and walking simulators is what modern gamer needs.

People have limited intellectual resources. Strategy requires that energy be expended, which is why most people don't play strategy and very few people achieve a high level of strategy. In order for more people to play strategy games, people must have a lot of surplus intellectual resources to put their energy into such games. Accordingly, people are more critical of strategies, since such people are smarter than most other people.

[Butcher]

Originally posted by Veresh1989:

Originally posted by Butcher:

Vampire survivors, idler with automatic shooting with horrible part stolen part asset graphics by slot machine dev got 77,000 peak
Stray, an actual walking simulator with the only redeeming quality being having catterino got 62,000 peak

Turn based strategies must go ahead and perish in peace, idlers and walking simulators is what modern gamer needs.

People have limited intellectual resources. Strategy requires that energy be expended, which is why most people don't play strategy and very few people achieve a high level of strategy. In order for more people to play strategy games, people must have a lot of surplus intellectual resources to put their energy into such games. Accordingly, people are more critical of strategies, since such people are smarter than most other people.

People are people, we are only interested in their numbers:

Originally posted by Veresh1989:

Age of Wonders III all-time peak 18,477
Age of Wonders: Planetfall all-time peak 10,346
Age of Wonders 4 all-time peak 42,826

It doesn't matter that people could prefer fantasy over Sci-Fi. Therefore:
Fortnight>Vampire Survivors>Stray>AoW4>AoW3>AoW: Planetfall>Dominions 5

[Ddraig Lleuad]

Originally posted by Veresh1989:

Age of Wonders all-time peak 86
Age of Wonders 2: The Wizard's Throne all-time peak 57

Oh yes, true fans are a force, of which there are a lot.

Shocking thought: People play games through other programs than Steam. In fact, games older than Steam might not be terribly likely to have a big playerbase on Steam's metrics! :O

Also, AoW3's playerbase being higher than Planetfall might be a figure that's somewhat inflated by how AoW3 got given away for literally free that one time, while Planetfall did not.

I've generally been arguing pretty consistently against the crowd of AoW2/SM purist grognards, and much prefer PF and AoW4 to the first three games, but this line of argument is just silly.

[Terrkas]

Originally posted by lastarchon:

Originally posted by Terrkas:

aow4 isnt really for you.

You're speaking like I'm a newcomer to the series, but I am one of its original players at the very beginning. "AoW4 isn't really for you" probably isn't what the Devs had in mind for their loyal player base when they designed the game.

Getting rid of races was a radical design choice, and clearly from conversation on the forum it is a very controversial choice. Your conclusion that AoW4 "isn't for" players who enjoy playing a particular fantasy racial identity is a nonsensical conclusion, sorry to be rude in saying so.

Well, there are dev diaries about it. I am not sure about the exact wording, but the devs are aware, that old fans would not like all the changes. I think one instance where a dev mentioned it was even especially about races now being just skins. So in that sense, aow4 isnt for you, if you dislike that aspect.

Though, I am not sure where exactly that line comes from.

Edit: Ok, that line was from an interview and got allready posted.

[Багряный]

Originally posted by Butcher:

Originally posted by Veresh1989:

People have limited intellectual resources. Strategy requires that energy be expended, which is why most people don't play strategy and very few people achieve a high level of strategy. In order for more people to play strategy games, people must have a lot of surplus intellectual resources to put their energy into such games. Accordingly, people are more critical of strategies, since such people are smarter than most other people.

People are people, we are only interested in their numbers:

Originally posted by Veresh1989:

Age of Wonders III all-time peak 18,477
Age of Wonders: Planetfall all-time peak 10,346
Age of Wonders 4 all-time peak 42,826

It doesn't matter that people could prefer fantasy over Sci-Fi. Therefore:
Fortnight>Vampire Survivors>Stray>AoW4>AoW3>AoW: Planetfall>Dominions 5

Stray all-time peak 51,455 24-hour peak 739
Stray is a one day game. AoW is a game for years, at least it's meant to be stable online.

Originally posted by Ddraig Lleuad:

Originally posted by Veresh1989:

Age of Wonders all-time peak 86
Age of Wonders 2: The Wizard's Throne all-time peak 57

Oh yes, true fans are a force, of which there are a lot.

Shocking thought: People play games through other programs than Steam. In fact, games older than Steam might not be terribly likely to have a big playerbase on Steam's metrics! :O

Also like, AoW3's playerbase being higher than Planetfall might be a figure that's somewhat inflated by how AoW3 got given away for literally free that one time, while Planetfall did not.

Sorry, but a hundred fans are not impressive, or rather 86

[Ddraig Lleuad]

Originally posted by Veresh1989:

Sorry, but a hundred fans are not impressive, or rather 86

Yes. I know.

I am pointing out that this figure is not accurate.

It is not accurate because it only records people playing the game on Steam.

A game released before Steam existed at all, let alone as a digital marketplace for all publishers, probably has most of its players outside Steam, where Steam cannot record them.

[Zedonova Nova]

Originally posted by Veresh1989:

Originally posted by Butcher:

People are people, we are only interested in their numbers:

It doesn't matter that people could prefer fantasy over Sci-Fi. Therefore:
Fortnight>Vampire Survivors>Stray>AoW4>AoW3>AoW: Planetfall>Dominions 5

Stray all-time peak 51,455 24-hour peak 739
Stray is a one day game. AoW is a game for years, at least it's meant to be stable online.

Originally posted by Ddraig Lleuad:

Shocking thought: People play games through other programs than Steam. In fact, games older than Steam might not be terribly likely to have a big playerbase on Steam's metrics! :O

Also like, AoW3's playerbase being higher than Planetfall might be a figure that's somewhat inflated by how AoW3 got given away for literally free that one time, while Planetfall did not.

Sorry, but a hundred fans are not impressive, or rather 86

Funny, how people forgot that during the age before Cloud Gaming there were CD players....:/

[Terrkas]

Originally posted by Ddraig Lleuad:

Originally posted by Veresh1989:

Age of Wonders all-time peak 86
Age of Wonders 2: The Wizard's Throne all-time peak 57

Oh yes, true fans are a force, of which there are a lot.

Shocking thought: People play games through other programs than Steam. In fact, games older than Steam might not be terribly likely to have a big playerbase on Steam's metrics! :O

Also, AoW3's playerbase being higher than Planetfall might be a figure that's somewhat inflated by how AoW3 got given away for literally free that one time, while Planetfall did not.

I've generally been arguing pretty consistently against the crowd of AoW2/SM purist grognards, and much prefer PF and AoW4 to the first three games, but this line of argument is just silly.

Oh, I enjoy aow2/SM and 4. Though, I wonder why fans of the series dont recognize that, when we get a new game, a noticable amount of time has passed and a lot of things get changed up.

From SM to 3, it was the hitsystem, classes got introduced, the leader is now a hero (again, I think was in 1 like that right?), there is stuff like flanking, flyers are no longer immune to ground melee units without spells like double gravity, resource nodes now have to be in a city, wizardtowers and the spellcasters domain are gone etc.

If someone complains about aow4s changes now, what did they say about 3? Most probably were happy to get an unexpected new game. But if they would have been as critical about 3, as they are of 4 now, they would have hated 3.

[Багряный]

Originally posted by Sednova Nova:

Originally posted by Veresh1989:

Stray all-time peak 51,455 24-hour peak 739
Stray is a one day game. AoW is a game for years, at least it's meant to be stable online.


Sorry, but a hundred fans are not impressive, or rather 86

Funny, how people forgot that during the age before Cloud Gaming there were CD players....:/

AoW3 and Planetfall stats ruined by CD? The fact is that creating your own race is superior to template races.

[MEATSHED]

Originally posted by Terrkas:

Originally posted by Ddraig Lleuad:

Shocking thought: People play games through other programs than Steam. In fact, games older than Steam might not be terribly likely to have a big playerbase on Steam's metrics! :O

Also, AoW3's playerbase being higher than Planetfall might be a figure that's somewhat inflated by how AoW3 got given away for literally free that one time, while Planetfall did not.

I've generally been arguing pretty consistently against the crowd of AoW2/SM purist grognards, and much prefer PF and AoW4 to the first three games, but this line of argument is just silly.

Oh, I enjoy aow2/SM and 4. Though, I wonder why fans of the series dont recognize that, when we get a new game, a noticable amount of time has passed and a lot of things get changed up.

From SM to 3, it was the hitsystem, classes got introduced, the leader is now a hero (again, I think was in 1 like that right?), there is stuff like flanking, flyers are no longer immune to ground melee units without spells like double gravity, resource nodes now have to be in a city, wizardtowers and the spellcasters domain are gone etc.

To my knowledge you did get to move your wizard on the map in 2 and sm but they were born with paper bones and glass skin so they just sat at one of your wizard towers

[Ddraig Lleuad]

basically like

Steam first opens as a Valve-exclusive gaming platform: September 2003
Steam first accepts publishers other than Valve: October 2005
Steam takes off with big (at the time) publishers like Id and Eidos: May 2007

Age of Wonders 1 release date: November 1999
Age of Wonders 2: A Wizard's Throne release date: June 2002
Age of Wonders 2: Shadow Magic release date: July 2003

Golly gee! I wonder why so many of these games players aren't on steam?

That said, Age of Wonders 4 has absolutely outsold 3 and Planetfall by a wide margin, yeah. How much of that is due to a difference in quality and how much is due to the marketing push AoW4 got is an open question, but 4 deserves due credit for its design. I'm certainly enjoying it.

(Planetfall was by no means a failure, though, I know the devs have said as much - I think I recall one of them saying it outsold 3, if you discount the many people who got 3 for free from the giveaway. Pretty good for a spinoff.)