My issue with order/creation/life

[Godsheal Powerloader]

I play this series back from the AoW1 time and I'm ALWAYS amazed as how life/creation/order and everything related on these titles is always clearly overpowered and god-tier (pun intended). By now I've already convinced myself this is done on purpose.

Aow1-2 life magic and highmen were cleary god tier, undeads were above average too but weak to life stuff so overally disadvantaged when it was present, which was not rare. Shadow magic changed little on that.

By AoW3 creation magic is only a specialization, which is very good for it not being so impactful on the overall dynamics of the game even though if it was still god tier amongst spec options too. I think 3 is the title that came closer to making it right.

(I have AoW:P but I haven't played it nearly enough to rate. Is life sphere the celestian ST there? Idk.)

I have played many matches in AoW4 mostly ignoring order, I usually play chaos/shadow and dip a little on nature and materium, I don't usually care that much about hoarding research, I feel that T3 tomes are usually everything I need to win and never ended up with the excessive tomes of everything and faction homogenization I see many people complaining about. However, when I finally came together to try order...

Wow. This sh*t is sooooo good. Too good in fact. Every tome is filled with obscenely overally strong stuff, I saw some dude complaining troops have too much survivability in aow4 and never understood why, but now I do. I feel the only hope of other affinities to battle this is indeed going an aggressive horde strat and spamming trash hoping for an economic victory. While order is loaded with good stuff, chaos and shadow have to tiptoe around sh*t picks and too situational, rng based and gimmicky stuff that can oftenly be too easily removed, deal with awkward soul system that seems to hinder shadow more than it helps unless you are playing in an endless bloodbath or suffer from crap empire upgrades like materium. Btw, order empire upgrades are very strong too, up there with astral. Idk, I feel whenever I'm not picking order now I'm nuzlocking myself. I hate how it happens in EVERY damn AoW title.

And better yet, wyvern update comes out and shadow and chaos get NERFED! Meanwhile order gets -1 dmg on zealots, wow.

"If you think something is overpowered, play it and you will start noticing it's weak points" Nope, whenever I run life/creation/order I get MORE convinced of how stronger than the alternatives it is. Am I the only one who feels like this?

[Charlando[SunsOfStmChrts]]

Could you give more specifics? Not that familiar with order yet

[Godsheal Powerloader]

Originally posted by CharlandoSunsOfStmChrts:

Could you give more specifics? Not that familiar with order yet

-Army heal: only way to give true heal your troops using mana, this gives you a huge early boost by reducing army downtimes for healing, I've gotten heroes to lv 20 in 40 turns because of this.

-Chaplains can counter half the game, even moreso if enchanted, and are always super useful

-Vassals give imperium, so they are not actually useless. Order actually makes a lot of effort into making vassals not useless. They still are anyway because of the AI, but even despite of that they are now useful.

-Hugely strong structures like tribunal, convent and temple of the exalted, meanwhile most other affinites get none. "But they are are not supposed to!", yeah, but it still makes a huge power gap, even moreso being structures as powerfu as these.

-Plenty of res reducing effects whilst getting anointed people which is frankly too good not to pick in any run. Aow veterans know res can make or break the game. Meanwhile chaos is getting vessels of chaos, lol. Even scions of flame has got sh*t compared to this, and it's t4.

-Needs to be pillaged twice to lose spelljammers which is HILARIOUSLY broken.

-Can EASILY field legendary units between all the healing, resurgence, xp boosts and INSTANT STACK LVL UP SPELL it gets and makes them EVEN stronger with empire upgrades. Oh, have I also mentioned you cann MASS RESSURECT them and buff them with the BEST buffs in the game?

-You like nukes? Order can deal some of the best ones. Actually, I think that now that fan the flames got nerfed into near uselessness, order actually has the BEST nuke spells in the game, and that is before considering the shrine of smiting! You'd think the best at nuking would be chaos or astral, but no. Order. Yay.

The list goes on...

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Now you mention it.
I do find order tomes to be the second most usefull in the game.
Only astral being superior.

[Flushing]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

Now you mention it.
I do find order tomes to be the second most usefull in the game.
Only astral being superior.

Order is crazy good, if I am not heavy in it, then I find that I still splash it for Lightbringers so that I can get convert super fast.

Unfortunately, Astral's been nerfed a bit so you can't really just splash it, you really have to be invested in it now.

For me, I find Materium and Earth to be the strongest Affinities and spectacularly strong together.

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by Flushing:

For me, I find Materium and Earth to be the strongest Affinities and spectacularly strong together.

Do you mean Materium and Nature? Materium is earth.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by Omar Telo D. Rego:

-You like nukes? Order can deal some of the best ones. Actually, I think that now that fan the flames got nerfed into near uselessness, order actually has the BEST nuke spells in the game, and that is before considering the shrine of smiting! You'd think the best at nuking would be chaos or astral, but no. Order. Yay.

The list goes on...

Yeah when i first used the Wrath of the Emperor, i thought this had to be eithe a bug, or a joke. You can actually delete entire stacks, or at least deal so much damage that an auto-resolve is a pushover. And the AI doesn't even use these spells.

The Heart affinity structure adds +20 damage to all damage spells, which means that e.g. Lightning Torrent merely deals 30 damage, while WotE now deals 40 damage, and you still get +50% on top if used in enemy territory.

Then it also makes the target army Demoralized, and Condemned which gives -3 status resistance and gives bonus damage to Zeal units.


And not sure if the bugs were ever fixed, but Torrent and Blizzard actually only dealt 5 instead of the listed 10 damage, making this discrepancy even worse.

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Originally posted by Omar Telo D. Rego:

-You like nukes? Order can deal some of the best ones. Actually, I think that now that fan the flames got nerfed into near uselessness, order actually has the BEST nuke spells in the game, and that is before considering the shrine of smiting! You'd think the best at nuking would be chaos or astral, but no. Order. Yay.

The list goes on...

Yeah when i first used the Wrath of the Emperor, i thought this had to be eithe a bug, or a joke. You can actually delete entire stacks, or at least deal so much damage that an auto-resolve is a pushover. And the AI doesn't even use these spells.

The Heart affinity structure adds +20 damage to all damage spells, which means that e.g. Lightning Torrent merely deals 30 damage, while WotE now deals 40 damage, and you still get +50% on top if used in enemy territory.

Then it also makes the target army Demoralized, and Condemned which gives -3 status resistance and gives bonus damage to Zeal units.


And not sure if the bugs were ever fixed, but Torrent and Blizzard actually only dealt 5 instead of the listed 10 damage, making this discrepancy even worse.

In fairness, even if that is the strongest overworld nuke in the game, it definitely isn't the best spell in the game. Nature and Shadow both get significantly better versions of Order's mass resurrect spell for example, and Avatar of Chaos is absolutely insane when paired with a powerful combat leader, like say a lv 20 dragon.

[daniel1vicentevieira]

funny, I never got this feeling for Life/Order/Good in any AoW. in AoW 2 and Shadow Magic my favorite was Death magic, the dread reaper + damnation combo was just insane, a single one could take down armies, and in gold medal it even got ressurgence. even their "weakness" against spirit stuff was nothing compared to the load of debuffs they applied to enemies. and animating ruins was just so handy in the strategic map, expanding was that easier than for other playstyles.

in AoW4 I also dont feel Order as being that powerful. I played a few times, it was ok. I often mix a bit of order in other affinities, like Tome of Subjugation is great for the Dark Knight/Shadow affinity, but for itself order really doesn't feel op.

for the quoted specifics...
the best (combat) nuke is Materium, Seismic Shatter is a battleground cleaner and on top of it it also stuns. other great alternatives are Avatar of Chaos + level 20 Dragon Leader, or Withering Mist with Devouring Void. Also worth mentioning that the best >early game< combat spell is from Astra (Fulminate) and remains important in late game.
the best (strategic) nuke is Astral, Lightning Storm is available since T1 tomes, and is capable of wiping armies in late game. Shadow doesn't have nukes, but it has the largest array of army-wide debuffs
as for best enchants and research structures I don't think there's a single best affinity, everyone can pick the favorite and mix a bit from other affinities to take the best synergies.

the only thing feeling truly powerful in Order to me is the rank up with a spell, which ends up evolving units to T4 and T5 almost for free. then you get imperium from vassals to support those units, which nobody else gets... this really feels powerful, but then it happens so late into the game that hardly ever it mattered.

[Flushing]

Originally posted by RadCon One:

Originally posted by Flushing:

For me, I find Materium and Earth to be the strongest Affinities and spectacularly strong together.

Do you mean Materium and Nature? Materium is earth.

Materium and Nature

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by daniel1vicentevieira:

funny, I never got this feeling for Life/Order/Good in any AoW. in AoW 2 and Shadow Magic my favorite was Death magic, the dread reaper + damnation combo was just insane, a single one could take down armies, and in gold medal it even got ressurgence. even their "weakness" against spirit stuff was nothing compared to the load of debuffs they applied to enemies. and animating ruins was just so handy in the strategic map, expanding was that easier than for other playstyles.

in AoW4 I also dont feel Order as being that powerful. I played a few times, it was ok. I often mix a bit of order in other affinities, like Tome of Subjugation is great for the Dark Knight/Shadow affinity, but for itself order really doesn't feel op.

for the quoted specifics...
the best (combat) nuke is Materium, Seismic Shatter is a battleground cleaner and on top of it it also stuns. other great alternatives are Avatar of Chaos + level 20 Dragon Leader, or Withering Mist with Devouring Void. Also worth mentioning that the best >early game< combat spell is from Astra (Fulminate) and remains important in late game.
the best (strategic) nuke is Astral, Lightning Storm is available since T1 tomes, and is capable of wiping armies in late game. Shadow doesn't have nukes, but it has the largest array of army-wide debuffs
as for best enchants and research structures I don't think there's a single best affinity, everyone can pick the favorite and mix a bit from other affinities to take the best synergies.

the only thing feeling truly powerful in Order to me is the rank up with a spell, which ends up evolving units to T4 and T5 almost for free. then you get imperium from vassals to support those units, which nobody else gets... this really feels powerful, but then it happens so late into the game that hardly ever it mattered.

In AoW3 the best thing about the Theocrat class was that between your units and research you often had multiple healing spells, and in that game healing spells healed your units on the overworld map for their heal per turn, meaning you where very good at wars of attrition were you weren't outright wiped out.

[daniel1vicentevieira]

Originally posted by RadCon One:

In AoW3 the best thing about the Theocrat class was that between youir units and research you often had multiple healing spells, and in that game healing spells healed your units on the overworld map for their heal per turn. meaning you were very good at wars of attrition were you weren't outright wiped out.

In AoW3 I hardly ever played teocrat, so I wont opine... it just doesn't have the flavor I like, I prefered Sorcerer or Necromancer first, any other second, Teocrat last.

[Flushing]

Originally posted by daniel1vicentevieira:

Originally posted by RadCon One:

In AoW3 the best thing about the Theocrat class was that between youir units and research you often had multiple healing spells, and in that game healing spells healed your units on the overworld map for their heal per turn. meaning you were very good at wars of attrition were you weren't outright wiped out.

In AoW3 I hardly ever played teocrat, so I wont opine... it just doesn't have the flavor I like, I prefered Sorcerer or Necromancer first, any other second, Teocrat last.

I am with you because I couldn't shake the RP feeling that I was playing as a fundamentalist priest leading a holy inquisition. The flip side of that, is that seems to have been intended by design.

In AoW4, order is 1 big step away from that.

We have Order. Order isn't good or bad.

[RadCon One]

Originally posted by Flushing:

Originally posted by daniel1vicentevieira:

In AoW3 I hardly ever played teocrat, so I wont opine... it just doesn't have the flavor I like, I prefered Sorcerer or Necromancer first, any other second, Teocrat last.

I am with you because I couldn't shake the RP feeling that I was playing as a fundamentalist priest leading a holy inquisition. The flip side of that, is that seems to have been intended by design.

In AoW4, order is 1 big step away from that.

We have Order. Order isn't good or bad.

Theocrat was always one of my favorites as they always felt like the good guys trying to bring healing to the world. I admit I like Order here for the same reason, as "Order" still very much so is PRIMARILY (though not guaranteed) to be played as the good guys. You can play them as an evil race, but they don't do as well due to a big art of Order being diplomacy... which gets me to the next part:

"Order" isn't really order, its more like "diplomacy", while "Chaos" isn't really chaos so much as "violence", yes either can perform the other, but it is clear which favors which.

[joel.west]

in AoW 4 ranged magic attacks by heroes are the most powerful

when I first started playing AoW 4 I was oblivious to the fact each tome adds a hero skill for free, just by unlocking the tome. some tomes give battle magic hero skills that magnify the efficacy of ranged magic attacks even more

now that I know this my game-play concern is mainly for tome specific battle magic hero skills. now that it is harder to unlock the lower rungs of the empire skills tree I find myself only wanting to use imperium to continually add to the city cap (with the mod that fixes the cost at 200 imperium forever)

my current tome unlock order -
1ORD faith for army heal, chaplain, etc
1NAT beasts for wildlife sanctuary special province bldg (1CHAOS horde or 1CHAOS pyro are also good)
2ORD beacon for covenant of faith spell to easily add 5 imp for each vassal
2ASTR scry for battle magic hero skill precognition (magic spells ignore obstacles in the way)
3ASTR teleport for battle magic hero skill quick phase (stacks with hero core skills blink or demon step)
2MAT artifice for non hero enchant artisan armaments giving 30% critical hit & siege project bolt repeaters giving 4 wall breaks
3CHAOS devastate for non hero enchant flameburst weapons giving 20% critical hit & siege projects devastator spheres giving 8 wall breaks & unleash war hounds

after that I could go in several possible directions but by this time my stack(s) of 6 to 12 heroes wipes out all comers both AI and gold Ancient Wonders. to more easily add heroes I play with the mod that starts you out with a no upkeep hero limit of 4, not the default of 1

[Godsheal Powerloader]

Even though I'm not entirely convinced, guess I'll give these other affinities more runs. I still feel chaos/shadow are the worst affinities though, and chaos's nerfs were completely unneeded.