I can't understand why anyone thinks Dragon's are weak

[chronobomb]

I see a lot of people posting Dragon's are weak. Here is a comparison of my Hero vs my Dragon on turn 25.

I do understand that Heroes will keep getting more powerful as they get buffs from tomes, but this dragon doesn't have to wait. I am clearing everything I run into solo. (Which is why I am level 20 on turn 25)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2993208649
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2993208587

My Hero is definitely not soloing any content.

[Zombiestocker]

champions and wizard kings can stack the racial transformation abilities as well as getting level ups and have 4 extra slots to boost damage and defense. (even though the item system is not that good atm). This can stack to create some insane combos. Dragons really only get the benefit of physical enchantments, and unless you're investing heavily into the physical tree they don't seem to get much extra damage per attack per level. (magical enchants don't affect their breath weapon, one or two magical talents do.).

Dragons are almost completely reliant on level up abilities to make them stronger, which
comes at the cost of taking support abilities to buff your army. Additionally since dragon abilities are their own subsection, it's a higher opportunity cost to dip into the the other parts of the skill "trees" to grab something that might be synergistic with your army or hero build. Dragons are also large targets so get hit by magic and missiles a harder. Also dragon scales does not increase status resist so dragons trying to spec into their aura can get stunlocked.

I think it wouldn't take much to make them the combat powerhouses they should be, maybe a little more status resist and hp per level. (they don't seem to get any hp per level?). I am enjoying using the dragons but they could stand a small bump.

(I haven't played much multiplayer and I've only used dragon rulers on Grexolis so far, so there may be some map/difficulty bonuses the computer was getting, but the status defense being so much higher on the enemy heroes was limiting my breath ability usefulness and was very noticeable when my army was getting stunlocked and i couldn't freeze their army...)

There's also the base issue that an aoe that needs careful positioning and does an okay amount of damage is not as good as triple attacking and potentially instantly removing a unit. A ranged hero merely autoattack can feel MUCH stronger than the dragons because of this. But that's just a side effect of the overall combat system.


..... thank you for coming to my ted talk.....

[Being X]

How did you get your dragon lord to be lvl 20 on turn 25? You probably play on normal difficulty level. My Dragon Lord is still around level 9 on turn 40 turns in Brutal difficulty.

I really hate that almost every thing can critical damage my Dragon lord because it is LARGE target unit. It is also why I hate Tier 5 Materium tome due to this Large target perk. All spears units will deal extra damage to Dragon.

There should be Tome 5 Dragon Perk where the Dragon Lord shrinks to Human size and become able to evade most attacks.

[Sifer2]

Dragons get two transformations through level up's. And with it being so luck based right now to get good items I would say it's not that imbalanced based on my first impression. Once they add the item forge that may change.

[Nordos/atord]

Dragons are ... interesting.
First of all, a Level 1 Dragon is stronger than a Level 1 Hero. As they rank up, this can change depending on what Talent you get at level 4 (I do think that Summoning a Tier 3 unit, even if temporary, tends to outperform the first Aspect).
Then you get to Level 12. And thats where Dragons have an immense, borderline insane, jump in Power. Why? Breath Attack. Particulary the Comet attack.

The reason is pretty simple. Your comet is now not 1 Hex, but 2 Hex, more than doubling its previous area (7 to 18). With the talent to use it every 2. turn, it can be devastating.
It now has a base chance of 60% to Stun or Freeze stuff, or other interesting effects. You can increase its Range (and I was under the impression, its damage as well) though the Magic Upgrades. Sure, I would really love to get a 'Fast Movement' Skill for them, somehow, though, but that would also be imbalancing it :P Otherwise enemies just can't cath up to you. at all.
I will admit. The melee damage tends to fall off. It has few range options outside its breath attack (and Talents/Misc you picked up), but also note that you tend to earn extra with a Dragon. Yes, they cost 30 Upkeep, but in my experience, you tend to have enough items by turn 20 to more than offset it.

I do have to say, the Level 12 Aspects aren't equal in my experience. Shadow is surprisingly good, for example, because it gives Lifesteal. Astral makes you immune to a lot of debuffs. Materium gives extra Gold, and makes you immune against a few debuffs without any drawbacks. Haven't tested the others so far.

[chronobomb]

Originally posted by Being X:

How did you get your dragon lord to be lvl 20 on turn 25? You probably play on normal difficulty level. My Dragon Lord is still around level 9 on turn 40 turns in Brutal difficulty.

I really hate that almost every thing can critical damage my Dragon lord because it is LARGE target unit. It is also why I hate Tier 5 Materium tome due to this Large target perk. All spears units will deal extra damage to Dragon.

There should be Tome 5 Dragon Perk where the Dragon Lord shrinks to Human size and become able to evade most attacks.

This is on normal as i am still learning which skills don’t suck. I normally play on brutal so i know what to expect. I should be able to level up even faster with the extra units on brutal. You might need a little more support for levels 1-6

By only using 1-2 units in a battle, you get almost 2 levels every battle. Just use your other units to maximize the number of battles you dragon can be pulled into per turn. I should be able to level up even faster with the extra units on brutal.

Both dark and nature should be able to solo fine on Brutal. I will test it this weekend.

[Nordos/atord]

Originally posted by chronobomb:

Originally posted by Being X:

How did you get your dragon lord to be lvl 20 on turn 25? You probably play on normal difficulty level. My Dragon Lord is still around level 9 on turn 40 turns in Brutal difficulty.

I really hate that almost every thing can critical damage my Dragon lord because it is LARGE target unit. It is also why I hate Tier 5 Materium tome due to this Large target perk. All spears units will deal extra damage to Dragon.

There should be Tome 5 Dragon Perk where the Dragon Lord shrinks to Human size and become able to evade most attacks.

This is on normal as i am still learning which skills don’t suck. I normally play on brutal so i know what to expect.

By only using 1-2 units in a battle, you get almost 2 levels every battle. Just use your other units to maximize the number of battles you dragon can be pulled into per turn.

Both dark and nature should be able to solo fine on Brutal. I will test it this weekend.

I am playing on Brutal, though with 2 Mods: increased map size (to get more fights) and increased level cap (currently level 24 on turn 40. Was around level 17 turn 35 or something, though).
I am running alone with my pure Shadow Dragon. Its ... complicated.
There are enemies which can deal immense damage (damned shadow puma!), some monsters can dispell, and others simply resist being frozen. Generally, I tend to loose 0-20 Life per fights - ironically its rarely the Horned God that causes problems, but various T4 Animals.

I think that it is highly dependant on the enemies and their composition. Then again, I rarely use spells - mostly because I really haven't researched good stuff yet (1 Citiy map is sloooow going)

EDIT: It also heavily depends on what enemies you have. I can imagine a Nature Dragon just wrecking a Plant Based fauna.

[chronobomb]

Originally posted by Nordos/atord:

Originally posted by chronobomb:

This is on normal as i am still learning which skills don’t suck. I normally play on brutal so i know what to expect.

By only using 1-2 units in a battle, you get almost 2 levels every battle. Just use your other units to maximize the number of battles you dragon can be pulled into per turn.

Both dark and nature should be able to solo fine on Brutal. I will test it this weekend.

I am playing on Brutal, though with 2 Mods: increased map size (to get more fights) and increased level cap (currently level 24 on turn 40. Was around level 17 turn 35 or something, though).
I am running alone with my pure Shadow Dragon. Its ... complicated.
There are enemies which can deal immense damage (damned shadow puma!), some monsters can dispell, and others simply resist being frozen. Generally, I tend to loose 0-20 Life per fights - ironically its rarely the Horned God that causes problems, but various T4 Animals.

I think that it is highly dependant on the enemies and their composition. Then again, I rarely use spells - mostly because I really haven't researched good stuff yet (1 Citiy map is sloooow going)

EDIT: It also heavily depends on what enemies you have. I can imagine a Nature Dragon just wrecking a Plant Based fauna.

I don’t play around with the shadow cats. I bring a warlock to debuff him. I can usually one shot him for 150. Its what makes the shadow dragon so strong. I find that getting magecraft really increases you chance to freeze everyone.

[The Dapper Dragon]

Originally posted by chronobomb:

I see a lot of people posting Dragon's are weak. Here is a comparison of my Hero vs my Dragon on turn 25.

I do understand that Heroes will keep getting more powerful as they get buffs from tomes, but this dragon doesn't have to wait. I am clearing everything I run into solo. (Which is why I am level 20 on turn 25)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2993208649
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2993208587

My Hero is definitely not soloing any content.

Simple. Because there are people here who want to complain about everything. I can only figure they're either Civ fans mad another game exists, because there's no way people can be stupid enough to think things like 'balance patches shouldn't happen after launch.'

[BigJ]

Current issue is transformations affect heroes but not the dragon, mwaning that eventually a hero will simply be better than a dragon.

[Imperium]

Dragons need to be effected by racial transformations.

[Nordos/atord]

Originally posted by Imperium:

Dragons need to be effected by racial transformations.

You know whats really weird? Summons, at least Undead ... seem to be? My summoned corrupted Soul (Combat Summon) was my race, while my normal Corrupt Souls (World Summons) weren't. Really weird inconsistency.

I think that the level 12 perk is supposed to be your 'transformation'. As shadow, for example, you all but get Wightborn. Undead and healing on Breath Attack. Well, sure, not on regular, but...

[Howell-Barrex Soldier Ja'kala]

Originally posted by Nordos/atord:

Dragons are ... interesting.
First of all, a Level 1 Dragon is stronger than a Level 1 Hero. As they rank up, this can change depending on what Talent you get at level 4 (I do think that Summoning a Tier 3 unit, even if temporary, tends to outperform the first Aspect).
Then you get to Level 12. And thats where Dragons have an immense, borderline insane, jump in Power. Why? Breath Attack. Particulary the Comet attack.

The reason is pretty simple. Your comet is now not 1 Hex, but 2 Hex, more than doubling its previous area (7 to 18). With the talent to use it every 2. turn, it can be devastating.
It now has a base chance of 60% to Stun or Freeze stuff, or other interesting effects. You can increase its Range (and I was under the impression, its damage as well) though the Magic Upgrades. Sure, I would really love to get a 'Fast Movement' Skill for them, somehow, though, but that would also be imbalancing it :P Otherwise enemies just can't cath up to you. at all.
I will admit. The melee damage tends to fall off. It has few range options outside its breath attack (and Talents/Misc you picked up), but also note that you tend to earn extra with a Dragon. Yes, they cost 30 Upkeep, but in my experience, you tend to have enough items by turn 20 to more than offset it.

I do have to say, the Level 12 Aspects aren't equal in my experience. Shadow is surprisingly good, for example, because it gives Lifesteal. Astral makes you immune to a lot of debuffs. Materium gives extra Gold, and makes you immune against a few debuffs without any drawbacks. Haven't tested the others so far.

They have a skill that can give fast movement in tactical combat and shadow dragons can inflict slow with their breath which allows them to almost infinitely kite melee enemies.

[Ichthyic]

Originally posted by BigJ:

Current issue is transformations affect heroes but not the dragon, mwaning that eventually a hero will simply be better than a dragon.

that is an easy thing to mod. I would be surprised if someone hasn't already done so.

[Nordos/atord]

Originally posted by Howell-Barrex Soldier Ja'kala:

Originally posted by Nordos/atord:

Dragons are ... interesting.
First of all, a Level 1 Dragon is stronger than a Level 1 Hero. As they rank up, this can change depending on what Talent you get at level 4 (I do think that Summoning a Tier 3 unit, even if temporary, tends to outperform the first Aspect).
Then you get to Level 12. And thats where Dragons have an immense, borderline insane, jump in Power. Why? Breath Attack. Particulary the Comet attack.

The reason is pretty simple. Your comet is now not 1 Hex, but 2 Hex, more than doubling its previous area (7 to 18). With the talent to use it every 2. turn, it can be devastating.
It now has a base chance of 60% to Stun or Freeze stuff, or other interesting effects. You can increase its Range (and I was under the impression, its damage as well) though the Magic Upgrades. Sure, I would really love to get a 'Fast Movement' Skill for them, somehow, though, but that would also be imbalancing it :P Otherwise enemies just can't cath up to you. at all.
I will admit. The melee damage tends to fall off. It has few range options outside its breath attack (and Talents/Misc you picked up), but also note that you tend to earn extra with a Dragon. Yes, they cost 30 Upkeep, but in my experience, you tend to have enough items by turn 20 to more than offset it.

I do have to say, the Level 12 Aspects aren't equal in my experience. Shadow is surprisingly good, for example, because it gives Lifesteal. Astral makes you immune to a lot of debuffs. Materium gives extra Gold, and makes you immune against a few debuffs without any drawbacks. Haven't tested the others so far.

They have a skill that can give fast movement in tactical combat and shadow dragons can inflict slow with their breath which allows them to almost infinitely kite melee enemies.

My Shadow Dragon didn't have any fast movement - and the slow from the comet was only for one turn. Most fast movement enemies (and especially these damn phase beasts) had no problem catching me

[daniel1vicentevieira]

their breath weapon (comet) is indeed a damage powerhouse, and the tail swipe is decent, but they are otherwise weak, they die easly and the normal hit is weak. using the aura or terrifying gorge feels hard, they don't seem to be meant to be into the fray. more HP could and more damage on the default attack would solve, probably.

but really, the breath weapon is amazing, last game I decimated an army in one breath plus 1 spell, really awesome :)