Two units break whole game

[сын мясника]

All archers in general and Zephyr/Glade in particular completely break the balance of the game. Reducing the attack range by 1 in the next patch won't help. Archers are simply impossible to defeat.

Three stacks of archers can easy kill 3, 6, or 9 stacks of any other units. They gain mass in inadequate numbers and become unstoppable. We tested many things in multiplayer. Overbuffed shock unit can hit for half HP of archer maybe while one archer hits 70 to 90 damage in aoe, with crits, reduce morale in aoe, debuff in aoe. What were the devs thinking? Didn't any of them play archers before release?

And what's the plan? They can't fix archers or nerf them correct because there is no way to do that without rebalancing whole game FROM CORE.

[сын мясника]

Originally posted by Terrkas:

Originally posted by сын мясника:

I can't screen not my own battle results in MP. And I upload only battles with equial power of armies. Another one with full archers but he have better army then me so it's not indicative.

https://ibb.co/SXD3Lwz

That looks better. If you ever manage to do such a battle. Is there a way for you to record and upload it? I would like to see how that plays out. Maybe with showing enchantment/heroskills at some point.

That makes it easier to see if maybe one side had an advantage or if a player lost because of poor tactical decisions.

No advantage, doesnt matter which chants or heroskills you choose. We have a rule about spell jammer, we all just dont use it. No other restrictions.

[darkholyPL]

Whatever tf they decide to do, I for one, and I'm sure many others, want them to separate singleplayer and multiplayer balance.
Stop messing up the fun of one group, to cater to the other one!

I don't give a ♥♥♥♥ if archers are 'OP'. I like it that way, leave it that way.

[secretagentguy]

Leave Archers the way they are and give several hard counters. Shield units in many cases seem to just be worse polearm units. Shield and Cavalry units should just have an inherent buff when attacking archers, and Archers should have significant Accuracy Bonuses when attacking them. Something like at least 50%, to account for their increased mobility and or increased armor protection. When Shield Units go into defense mode it should provide an arrow shield for nearby units that either reduces ranged damage by 50% or reduces accuracy that much, and it should multiplicatively stack, meaning two shield units next to each other should reduce by 75%. Finally, add a few combat spells that either reflect arrows back at their attackers or significantly reduce their damage or accuracy. There is plenty of fantasy lore and other examples of spells that can already do this. Maybe add a monk unit that can catch arrows and throw them back?

Finally, please make the Iron Golem a polearm unit, and allow it to evolve into a Golden Golem, or maybe a tier 4 polearm Golem that evolves into a Golden Golem.

[soldier6661111]

Archers are powerful but they’re squishy as hell. Attack with melee accomplishes two goals. It reduces their HP and damage output, blocks the archer from attacking and opens the archer to an attack of opportunity if the archer retreats in order to be able to attack, further reducing damage output.

And melee isn’t the only option. Magic can easily counter any unit put on the field.

I agree with other users that shield units should provide more defense against ranged attacks (physical ranged) and an increased debuff to archer accuracy to units beyond the shield unit.

Leave archers as they are. Create better synergies within the army.

[rumpelstiltskin]

blinks are available to everyone via unicorn mounts, and although i don't think there's a way to get a steady supply of storm spirits (apart from evolving them from lesser storm spirits, but that takes time), the same tome that has zephyrs allows summoning wind ragers, which are fast and have a built-in 60% wind barrier. if you leave them in an obstacle archers basically can't hit them.
at least on paper, storm spirits look like they should counter archer-heavy armies like a brick wall. 60% wind barrier + single unit (so no damage loss from an initial archer attack)

[Seswatha]

Meh, there are things that counter them even now and the patch hits archers pretty hard in a number of ways. They don't actually nerf the range, not sure where you got that.

However:
-Seeker arrows lose 20% accuracy bonus
-Legendary rank no longer gives +20% accuracy either
-Marked from Coordinated Strikes applies with 60% chance rather than guaranteed
-Research changes mean you can no longer easily get all the low tier enchantments for cheap
-Several ranged enchantments neerfed to +1 damage and chance to inflict a status opposed to +2 damage and 20% damage vs status before
-Artisan Armaments (+30% crit) no longer works on ranged
-Zephyr archers lose immunity to AoO
-Glade Runner's mark is nerfed to 2 marked 1 sunder armor

Tbh with these changes I think battlemages will replace archers in the meta in a lot of cases, since archers mostly just have more range now, but will often struggle to hit things at this range anyway. And battlemages have superior ability to get in position once you have phasing. Especially since you don't need specific tomes to get t3 battlemages for 2 of the cultures.

Other than that, teleporting cav, phase beasts, storm spirits will counter archers just like they do now. As well as stacking defensive stats in general, since archers don't do great once engaged in melee and rely on killing stuff fast, which is kinda hard against enemies with 15+ armor/resist.

[сын мясника]

Originally posted by Seswatha:

Meh, there are things that counter them even now and the patch hits archers pretty hard in a number of ways. They don't actually nerf the range, not sure where you got that.

However:
-Seeker arrows lose 20% accuracy bonus
-Legendary rank no longer gives +20% accuracy either
-Marked from Coordinated Strikes applies with 60% chance rather than guaranteed
-Research changes mean you can no longer easily get all the low tier enchantments for cheap
-Several ranged enchantments neerfed to +1 damage and chance to inflict a status opposed to +2 damage and 20% damage vs status before
-Artisan Armaments (+30% crit) no longer works on ranged
-Zephyr archers lose immunity to AoO
-Glade Runner's mark is nerfed to 2 marked 1 sunder armor

Tbh with these changes I think battlemages will replace archers in the meta in a lot of cases, since archers mostly just have more range now, but will often struggle to hit things at this range anyway. And battlemages have superior ability to get in position once you have phasing. Especially since you don't need specific tomes to get t3 battlemages for 2 of the cultures.

Other than that, teleporting cav, phase beasts, storm spirits will counter archers just like they do now. As well as stacking defensive stats in general, since archers don't do great once engaged in melee and rely on killing stuff fast, which is kinda hard against enemies with 15+ armor/resist.

ARTISAN ARMAMENTS doesnt work for battle mages
AMPLIFIED ARROWS doesnt work for battle mages

Phase beasts and elems do not counter archers in FFA only in 1v1 because of pace. Archers will have 180-190 hp in late game.

[Seswatha]

Originally posted by сын мясника:

Originally posted by Seswatha:

Meh, there are things that counter them even now and the patch hits archers pretty hard in a number of ways. They don't actually nerf the range, not sure where you got that.

However:
-Seeker arrows lose 20% accuracy bonus
-Legendary rank no longer gives +20% accuracy either
-Marked from Coordinated Strikes applies with 60% chance rather than guaranteed
-Research changes mean you can no longer easily get all the low tier enchantments for cheap
-Several ranged enchantments neerfed to +1 damage and chance to inflict a status opposed to +2 damage and 20% damage vs status before
-Artisan Armaments (+30% crit) no longer works on ranged
-Zephyr archers lose immunity to AoO
-Glade Runner's mark is nerfed to 2 marked 1 sunder armor

Tbh with these changes I think battlemages will replace archers in the meta in a lot of cases, since archers mostly just have more range now, but will often struggle to hit things at this range anyway. And battlemages have superior ability to get in position once you have phasing. Especially since you don't need specific tomes to get t3 battlemages for 2 of the cultures.

Other than that, teleporting cav, phase beasts, storm spirits will counter archers just like they do now. As well as stacking defensive stats in general, since archers don't do great once engaged in melee and rely on killing stuff fast, which is kinda hard against enemies with 15+ armor/resist.

ARTISAN ARMAMENTS doesnt work for battle mages
AMPLIFIED ARROWS doesnt work for battle mages

Phase beasts and elems do not counter archers in FFA only in 1v1 because of pace. Archers will have 180-190 hp in late game.

ARTISAN ARMAMENTS is not gonna work for archers next patch either.
And phasing on battlemages means they get to attack first without losing any damage potential, killing a bunch of archers before they even get to attack back.

For super long games, yes non racial units don't scale but you can likely win magic victory before that happens, unless you disabled it too. And you still have unicorn knights as an option (research tyrant knights for cultures w/o knights).

[сын мясника]

Originally posted by Seswatha:

Originally posted by сын мясника:

ARTISAN ARMAMENTS doesnt work for battle mages
AMPLIFIED ARROWS doesnt work for battle mages

Phase beasts and elems do not counter archers in FFA only in 1v1 because of pace. Archers will have 180-190 hp in late game.

ARTISAN ARMAMENTS is not gonna work for archers next patch either.
And phasing on battlemages means they get to attack first without losing any damage potential, killing a bunch of archers before they even get to attack back.

For super long games, yes non racial units don't scale but you can likely win magic victory before that happens, unless you disabled it too. And you still have unicorn knights as an option (research tyrant knights for cultures w/o knights).

I told you before - unicorn riders doesnt work. Battle mages can only focus one target while one archer dealing damage to 2 targets - two units taking damage, two units lose morale cause of crits.

[Seswatha]

Originally posted by сын мясника:

Originally posted by Seswatha:

ARTISAN ARMAMENTS is not gonna work for archers next patch either.
And phasing on battlemages means they get to attack first without losing any damage potential, killing a bunch of archers before they even get to attack back.

For super long games, yes non racial units don't scale but you can likely win magic victory before that happens, unless you disabled it too. And you still have unicorn knights as an option (research tyrant knights for cultures w/o knights).

I told you before - unicorn riders doesnt work. Battle mages can only focus one target while one archer dealing damage to 2 targets - two units taking damage, two units lose morale cause of crits.

Unicorn knights work just fine in my experience, not sure why you think they don't. My games rarely go into super lategame situations though.

Battlemages will likely kill or heavily damage a good portion of the archers on the first turn of engagement reducing any damage they take back substantially, and they're guaranteed to have a better engagement turn thanks to phasing enchantment. They have way better resistance vs elemental portion of the archer's damage (+2) while themselves piercing another 2 resistance at max rank. Also depending on the specific battlemage unit in question can do a lot of other nasty things like removing any buffs from the archers while being fully buffed with bolster armor, resistance, strengthen, fortune etc.

[revjwh]

I totally disagree. There are plenty of counters to archers - including once you are near them they have to disengage and provoke an attack of opportunity. If I play materium, I can create Bastions who end up with 8-10 shields and 7-10 resist - I've watched Zephyr Archers hit the Bastions and do about 10 hitpoints max. Further a lot of spells that hit AoE for fire/earth etc. often wreck archers and weaken them so that infantry can clean them up - add to this unicorn knights etc. and you can rip through them. If someone fielded 3 stacks of archers against 3 balanced stacks, I've often seen them get ripped to shreds. Not sure how others are playing SP or MP but I think the Zephyr are a bit OP with their area of effect shot but otherwise there are plenty of spells/abilities/combos that counter them.

[revjwh]

Then how! How is 4 released in this state?! The game's out of the oven 3 months too early just by looking at the road map. I cannot express how much I DESPISE the new factionless mechanic but at least you are experimenting with something new. The AI, desync MP and underground map generation cockups though, are NOT a personal preference issue. The game has been sitting un-played in my library since the 3rd week of launch because there's no point in playing it either in SP or MP.

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Are you in drama club?

I've played every game Triumph has released and AoW4 overall is a massive improvement compared to each of the preceding ones in many areas. Does it need some balance? Yep -but so did all of the others. Tomes need limited so you can't grab so many and should take longer to get new ones and after you commit to 2 or 3 'branches' the rest should grey out as incompatible...... or something.

I LOVE the new make your own factions and I've played an entire empire underground and my only complaint is sometimes (not all the time) there are too few resources.

I'm enjoying AoW4 immensely - it's too bad you aren't but we all have different expectations and tolerances.

[SQW]

Originally posted by revjwh:

Then how! How is 4 released in this state?! The game's out of the oven 3 months too early just by looking at the road map. I cannot express how much I DESPISE the new factionless mechanic but at least you are experimenting with something new. The AI, desync MP and underground map generation cockups though, are NOT a personal preference issue. The game has been sitting un-played in my library since the 3rd week of launch because there's no point in playing it either in SP or MP.

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Are you in drama club?

I've played every game Triumph has released and AoW4 overall is a massive improvement compared to each of the preceding ones in many areas. Does it need some balance? Yep -but so did all of the others. Tomes need limited so you can't grab so many and should take longer to get new ones and after you commit to 2 or 3 'branches' the rest should grey out as incompatible...... or something.

I LOVE the new make your own factions and I've played an entire empire underground and my only complaint is sometimes (not all the time) there are too few resources.

I'm enjoying AoW4 immensely - it's too bad you aren't but we all have different expectations and tolerances.

Some people enjoy winning chess against a pigeon but that doesn't make 4 any less of a hot garbage. MP is still broken 2.5 months after launch. 4's AI is broken beyond any semblance of a challenge - IT DOESN'T ATTACK YOU! - so not sure what that says about your enjoyment of a so-called strategy game. The hideous factions you so enjoy making is also so boring and repetitive even the devs are trying to tone it down to creative some sort of identity. THEN there are the vanilla performance issues and balance.

I'm glad you are enjoying your purchase while it's going back to beta but some of us hold our purchases to a higher standard.

[HolyGrail]

well once they nerf the archers and everyone's using phasing enchantment on their magical ranged units to cast their 3 point aoe spells we're gonna get another "this unit breaks the game, everyone's spamming it and I can't counter it with my archers :(".. so my take is leave archers alone cuz we all know what's gonna happen next and that catering to the MP playerbase ultimately leads to a generic solo game.. and sometimes even a generic multiplayer game as was the case with Battlefleet Gothic 2.

[Fii]

Include a new general spell (the ones that don't take tomes) unlocked for research when you have any tier 3 tome.

Teleport your units within 1 AoE from anywhere to anywhere else on the battlefield (they fill the nearest unoccupied point to target center), but leaves teleported units with only 1 action point (or zero if they already acted).

If enemy has too many archers, you can just hang back the first turn and then drop all your melee on top of them.