Is Falcom legitimately afraid of portraying death?

[erect2protect]

I've had this complaint festering in me for quite a while. Don't get me wrong, I've played all of the games and have thoroughly enjoyed them all. But I still can't understand why Falcom is so opposed to the idea of showing some of their beloved characters bite the dust. I think its ok for me to delve into spoilers since this is a forum on Reverie, which would assume you have played all the games before.

Cold Steel 3's ending would have had a bigger impact if everyone on the Couregeous would have indeed died. I honestly did think they were all dead but was both relieved and annoyed that they would cop out on what I thought at the time was a holy s*** moment. But now that as I finished the game in its entirety including the Coda episode, I can't help but feel like we missed out on some good storytelling because of cop outs. Like I personally would have loved to see how they would have overcome the Great Twilight without Olivier, Toval and the rest who were on the ship.

Reverie too had an obvious moment in the end where you think (MASSIVE SPOILER if you havent beat the game, this is your last chance) Rufus is gonna actually sacrifice himself but it turns out to be a calculation made by Elysium showing what was gonna happen. I'm not by any means saying he should have died cause I really liked his route but I think he should have died. Sure it would have been a sad way to go because he got everyone to hate him so that the tower would shoot the laser back at his location. But that would made a fine end to his story but Falcom once again shows that they are unable to commit to their actions and always cop out in the end. It makes me wonder if Kuro no Kiseki is gonna be like that too, (which I have a feeling it will be)

[YueJin]

Yeah, unfortunately it's happened so often by this point that it feels like there are no stakes involved any more. Character death, either hero or villain can be a very powerful tool in storytelling whilst faking it can be a great shock effect once but then diminishes every time it's used after that.

It wasn't too bad in Sky with Lowe's death being poignant and permanent. Zero was mostly a lower stakes game but Joachim's death provided effective character building for the SSS. Azure had the Red Constellation assault on Crossbell and Illya's crippling injuries.

Cold Steel 2-4 though just had a procession of characters pretending to die and being brought back which took all the tension out of scenes as they felt fake. Crow's was particularly bad as it meant I wouldn't believe the story telling even if it directly showed the dead body as there would be some terribly justified way of bringing that character back to life. Moments that could have been filled with emotion were just flat as the trust between storyteller and reader was lost.

[Talithmara]

I prefer to think of it as having the deaths mean something.

Let's look back at Sky SC, for example, and Loewe. Would what happened have held much weight if he turned around and went "lol not dead jk" somehow? Or if like... Ouroboros reanimated them as a mecha-zombie that turned good after a boss fight or three because "oh hey a new party member, have fun!" No, Loewe was an important part of the story, mostly for Joshua's sake, and their death showed us just how truly human Joshua really was. To undo that death would cheapen everything.

Weissman in the same game is also worth noting, for different reasons. Someone like that is a truly terrifying character to keep as a recurring antagonist. They could have kept going and potentially become the most powerful and terrifying person in all of Zemuria at that rate, with their ability to manipulate peoples' memories without them even noticing, and their ability to basically reprogram people into willing puppets. By eliminating them in the way they did, they guaranteed, "No. We are shutting off future potential for this character. We are committing to doing something new." Even if Ouroboros had Necromancy, there's nothing to bring back. And he was VERY salty about it when he realised how he was dying - pun VERY intended.

(Skipping Crossbell because I'm waiting on a friend to finish Sky to play through together and taking turns passing the save file back and forth as we stream it to each other.)

Cold Steel? Well, they definitely had some cheapened deaths for sure (Millium in particular should NOT have come back, and Crow should have vanished again during/after the Rivalries.) However, I actually choose to see the Rivalries as "twisting the knife." I mean, Fie getting to see her adoptive father again, only to be forced apart again? There's a LOT of potential for VERY good drama with stuff like this, and I would have had ZERO complaints about it at ALL if they hadn't just magically saved Crow and kept him around permanently.

I think THIS is a big part of the issue some people have with the lack of death. It feeling like they just want an excuse to keep someone alive... in a series that has so many playable characters that losing even half of them would still leave you with more than several full teams to split and use simultaneously. If any series could get away with killing more characters, it's this one. But killing a character means they can't be used anymore, and I understand why many writers would rather keep their options open.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to mention, any setting that has X established (Teleportation, revival, etc) that doesn't use them to save someone can actively come across as lazily just trying to kill someone off for cheap drama, so the example from the ending of Reverie kind of *needed* to happen unless everyone just unanimously decided "screw it, let them die." Teleportation was established as using the Spirit Veins in previous games, and the tower was directly connected to and drawing power from them, so yeah, no real reason to not do it.

[erect2protect]

I'm actually glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way. For all the good that Falcom has done with the series, the narrative IMO has slowly but surely going downhill. There just could have been so much potential with the "deaths" they had and made something great out of it. I have to wonder if it is due to Japanese fans' feedback that won't allow them to kill anyone of importance off.

[Talithmara]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von erect2protect:

I have to wonder if it is due to Japanese fans' feedback that won't allow them to kill anyone of importance off.

That actually seems kind of likely based on what I've heard.

Don't ask me for a source since it's been so long I forget where I heard this, but apparently the reason Rean and Lloyd are both so different from Estelle had to do with reception. I adore Estelle so much more as a protagonist, and her fixed relationship (none of that player choice, it was woven into the main narrative) was very believably handled for the setting. But apparently Japan isn't a huge fan of characters like Estelle and prefer characters like Lloyd and Rean, hence why we haven't had another lead like Estelle.

So clearly someone at Falcom is either listening to feedback or at least looking at trends and sales numbers.

[erect2protect]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Talithmara:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von erect2protect:

I have to wonder if it is due to Japanese fans' feedback that won't allow them to kill anyone of importance off.

That actually seems kind of likely based on what I've heard.

Don't ask me for a source since it's been so long I forget where I heard this, but apparently the reason Rean and Lloyd are both so different from Estelle had to do with reception. I adore Estelle so much more as a protagonist, and her fixed relationship (none of that player choice, it was woven into the main narrative) was very believably handled for the setting. But apparently Japan isn't a huge fan of characters like Estelle and prefer characters like Lloyd and Rean, hence why we haven't had another lead like Estelle.

So clearly someone at Falcom is either listening to feedback or at least looking at trends and sales numbers.

That's very interesting! I personally also liked Estelle so it's a shame that Japan didn't like her as much. But between Estelle, Kevin (everyone always forgets him lol), Lloyd and Rean, Rean is definitely the one they chose to fill with as many tropes as possible to appeal to more people. I would even go as far as to say that Rean is the male equivalent of a Mary Sue, he's just too good. I don't hate him but I have to admit that he can always pull of some kind of bulls*** when he needs to.

[Candyman2000]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von JamesClawk:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Stabbey:

If Falcom doesn't want to kill characters off, fine... but if that's the case, then they should stop jerking the audience around with fake-out, "these people are absolutely dead/doomed, for reals" moments.

I'm not even talking about "person falls off the cliff out of sight" things. At the end of CS 2, Crow was impaled through the chest, a very karmic moment with a cherry of redemption on top. He got a big long dying speech, died on-screen, in the main character's arms, with everyone going "there's nothing we can do". They brought him back, and he got to give two MORE, additional, big long dying speeches and he ended up living twice more.

Things like that just undercuts the emotional stakes. It's the boy crying wolf. Falcom has done this enough that these big manipulative "we're REALLY going to kill these people, no kidding, for real" attempts just fall flat. I felt nothing when the Courageous went down, because I didn't believe they were going to really do it, despite cutting to everyone on board going "well, we're screwed."

I made a thread with a lot of similar points and it was genuinely shocking to me how many people just went "If you want a bloodbath, this series isn't for you!" as if that was at all the point.

even worse is the overuse of the bosses getting there ♥♥♥♥ pommelled in relentlessly then instantly the game going omg we can't defeat him he's to powerful, ha that wasn't even a tenth of my power, or sike ♥♥♥♥♥ i'm joining in now. then you get the reverse of these with others joining in to save you constantly...

[Candyman2000]

or rean going super sayian just more lame tropes and cliches constantly.

[Thelegendaryhunter]

i was fine with how the handled it but you can really feel the softness in cs 2, where because they hate showing death it kind of flopped, that and the fake outs.

[erect2protect]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Candyman2000:

or rean going super sayian just more lame tropes and cliches constantly.

That reminds me, the most annoying thing that got me rolling my eyes was when in the chapter when you're in the Nord Highlands. The cannon is about to kill Gaius' family and then just suddenly out of nowhere he summons his Tyrfing S and saves the day. That was so bulls***

[Zekkn]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Candyman2000:

or rean going super sayian just more lame tropes and cliches constantly.

i mean the entire trails series is a series of "lame" and "cliche" tropes... thats a bad excuse for not liking something when its been this series shtick since its first game, never understood how people only just realized it with cold steel but never seem to remember any of the games beforehand being just as obnoxious with the things people seem to hate in cs.

this is what happens when people dont learn to form their own opinions and just keep parroting what a bunch of people have said already without actually being able to not contradict themselves.

[JamesClawk]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Zekkn:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Candyman2000:

or rean going super sayian just more lame tropes and cliches constantly.

i mean the entire trails series is a series of "lame" and "cliche" tropes... thats a bad excuse for not liking something when its been this series shtick since its first game, never understood how people only just realized it with cold steel but never seem to remember any of the games beforehand being just as obnoxious with the things people seem to hate in cs.

this is what happens when people dont learn to form their own opinions and just keep parroting what a bunch of people have said already without actually being able to not contradict themselves.

I do think Cold Steel, especially the later half, did embrace certain tropes that really did a number on the story. I found it really frustrating the conflict turned out the be some ancient curse corrupting the empire, instead of letting character motivations and agency drive the plot. Or the idea of 'The only way to stop the bad guy is to join the bad guy' or whatever you want to call what was going on with the chancellor.

And then, of course, the topic of this discussion, constant fake out deaths and resurrections. It all detracts from my investment in these games, and it's why CSIII and CSIV are two of my least favourites in the series.

Reverie has a lot of the same issues, of course, but I think much of what surrounded it, like the excellent addition of the Reverie Corridor, made up for some of that in my mind.

[Stabbey]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von John Nash:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von erect2protect:

That reminds me, the most annoying thing that got me rolling my eyes was when in the chapter when you're in the Nord Highlands. The cannon is about to kill Gaius' family and then just suddenly out of nowhere he summons his Tyrfing S and saves the day. That was so bulls***

I agree. Still don't understand how he could do that. Anyone could explain how he can do this? Must be relating with his shining left eye's colors?

Here's the "explanation," in vague terms: Something is making things happen which would normally be impossible to happen . All kinds of things. It is not an explanation I find particularly satisfying for what should be obvious reasons.

[Trelares]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Stabbey:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von John Nash:

I agree. Still don't understand how he could do that. Anyone could explain how he can do this? Must be relating with his shining left eye's colors?

Here's the "explanation," in vague terms: Something is making things happen which would normally be impossible to happen . All kinds of things. It is not an explanation I find particularly satisfying for what should be obvious reasons.

From all the weird things happening, the summoning of the Tyrfing S is probably one of the most logical things, if you pay close attention to the scene Rean himself says a line that foreshadows how that actually worked ( Valimar ).

[erect2protect]

Would it be safe to say that the decreasingly low stakes across the story is hurting the narrative? I'd like to think it does. At this point, I keep playing the games because I like the characters and their interactions with one another.

[Alex]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von John Nash:

I agree. Still don't understand how he could do that. Anyone could explain how he can do this? Must be relating with his shining left eye's colors?

It surely is related smh.
As we all know, he's partially mixed, I presume with demonic essence.