Collectibles have to be collected during the story, correct?

[MB]

I realized that this game has lots of hidden stuff to be found, and I took care to check for them when it seemed appropriate. Sometimes I found I would need more powers to reach them so I left them for later. Furthermore, as the story progresed it seemed a bit unappropriate to spend time searching for bunnys while people are dying.

So I was a bit disappointed that the game doesn't offer he possibility to go on treasure hunt once the trouble is over. By then you just don't have the powers any more, for one reason.

So am I right that you essentially have to take any chance for finding threasures at a place, because you will in most cases never return to that place later? Seems so.

Also, do you have to find all the already found collectibles again if you start a new game? (I must admit I don't feel like I want to go through this nightmare story again. But never mind, that's my problem.)

[Sahin Cengiz]

Heya MB! You are right and I do understand the disappointment! It is possible to miss out on Collectibles and other optional content if you progress in the story. You will also need to find the collectibles again if starting the game from the beginning - at least in terms of Achievements and events that unlock by finding all of them.

Though this is the case in almost every linear narrative - it's just not an Open World game. We discussed during development whether we could allow more free roaming but it was so far beyond our scope that it was not really possible - especially within the story we were telling. There's a lot of limits for small team and small budgets *cries in indie* x)

Couple of positive notes though:
1) We do give a lot more chances to return to the early areas than many other linear games. Especially when Chapter 7 starts, you have access to most of the collectibles in the early areas before returning home. (and there's even another chance to return to some areas at Chapter 9 but it's a bit more secret).

2) Replaying the game wouldn't take that long - especially comparing to large open worlds. It doesn't have to be right away after the first time around, but that treasure hunt playthrough will be waiting later too! So I'm hoping you'll find interest in doing that once the nightmare-enduring batteries are recharged :)

Also thank you big time for playing the game, giving feedback and writing a really nice review! This is very valuable to us - and I can assure you we'll take your feedback into account when going towards our next games. As a gamer, I completely agree with you on everything, even if these things weren't possible to do for us at the time.

[MB]

Thank you for your extensive answer. Indeed it is okay if there are possibilities to get back to some areas and get the achievements that were out of reach initially.
I am halfway through the second playthrough, discovered formerly unknown places, found many more items and yet I know I missed or simply couldn't find a few. (And no, I'm not going to watch "full walkthrough" videos.)

It is very challenging, you basically have to create a checklist in order to not skip something inadvertedly. I ticked them off on a copy of the map. It also helps to create a plan first with the knowledge gained from a first and possibly second play-through regarding which collectibles can (or have to) wait for later and which have to be searched instantly. Your tips certainly helped. Thank you.

[swoo703]

Origineel geplaatst door Sahin Cengiz:

Heya MB! You are right and I do understand the disappointment! It is possible to miss out on Collectibles and other optional content if you progress in the story. You will also need to find the collectibles again if starting the game from the beginning - at least in terms of Achievements and events that unlock by finding all of them.

Though this is the case in almost every linear narrative - it's just not an Open World game. We discussed during development whether we could allow more free roaming but it was so far beyond our scope that it was not really possible - especially within the story we were telling. There's a lot of limits for small team and small budgets *cries in indie* x)

Couple of positive notes though:
1) We do give a lot more chances to return to the early areas than many other linear games. Especially when Chapter 7 starts, you have access to most of the collectibles in the early areas before returning home. (and there's even another chance to return to some areas at Chapter 9 but it's a bit more secret).

2) Replaying the game wouldn't take that long - especially comparing to large open worlds. It doesn't have to be right away after the first time around, but that treasure hunt playthrough will be waiting later too! So I'm hoping you'll find interest in doing that once the nightmare-enduring batteries are recharged :)

Also thank you big time for playing the game, giving feedback and writing a really nice review! This is very valuable to us - and I can assure you we'll take your feedback into account when going towards our next games. As a gamer, I completely agree with you on everything, even if these things weren't possible to do for us at the time.

Hi, I've just finished the game and I am feeling the exact same frustration as MB for not having known that the game would not offer me a real chance to get all across the map with all powerups and do treasure hunting. But I would like to add something to make you realise why, I believe, Snowfall's design choices, lead me to believe the game would offer me a chance to go treasure hunting. You see, as the progression during the first chapters is rather slow, in a nice and joyful environment, it really felt like the kind of environment Spyro or Mario 64 games were offering: small-in-size but full open worlds, nonetheless. And, the fact it appeared quickly enough very obvious that many of the collectibles were out of reach and would require to get back to them later on, it felt also like the Metroid game series: an environment with places only reachable with some power ups gained throughout the story. So, while I took all my sweet time to try and collect all I could see and reach during my playthrough, as the narrative's gloominess increased, I felt, just like MB was saying, that treasure hunting was becoming less and less appropriate, at least with a RP attitude. Besides, as the environment's joyfulness decreseased, I felt less and less the interest in going searching for collectibles and felt I would get my chance, after all the disorder is over, to go on a happy treasure hunting quest. Once I got the last power up, I thought: well, by the look of it, maybe I should go and try to collect the collectibles I left behind, just in case the game is not designed in a way I will get another chance. But then, while that's the only time you get most of the map "open" again (although the massive disorders clearly block access to some areas of the map) and all the power ups at the same time, it's also the time when the game decides to put un-killable creatures chasing the player everywhere they go and, as we have to cross areas of the map the narrative never made us go through again for quite a long time, we don't even know for sure how to reach some of the collectibles we might remember having left behind. So, as I hate being chased endlessly in a video game when I try to do treasure hunting, I decided I would rush through to the objective the narrative was giving me and I hoped the game would allow me to get back to the map after the peace has been recovered. So, you can imagine the frustration I felt when, at the end of the game, while the peace has indeed been recovered, the game didn't allow me to go back and visit the map again calmly.

One final thought/question: what about the Chapter selection option? Because there's an indication on each chapter of that list of the collectibles found out of those still to find "in the area". It feels like this Chapter selection option is there to go back to any chapter just for the sake of collecting the collectibles previously missed and that those indications show exactly what is still reachable during each chapter.

Except I feel like that's once again misleading, because:
- I noticed during my playthrough that the collectible indications visible in the pause menu were changing when I was changing from an area of the map to another, even while I was still in the same chapter. Thus, I fear that those indications visible on the Chapter selection option are, there too, only relevant for the area of the map each of the chapter listed is starting onto. Which would mean those indications are useless because they don't show exactly what can still be collected when playing a single listed chapter alone.
- For unlisted collectibles (mainly the wandering spirits), it is unclear whether or not one has to collect them again when replaying a chapter or whether one can concentrate only on collecting those they missed out.
- Let's assume one would start again one of those chapters from the list and collect all they missed previously in that chapter. By the time that chapter ends, what will the game do?
A) Stop right there and go back to the Chapter selection list, with updated indicators?
B) Not stop at all and keep the narrative going? If so, will the game erase the previous progress obtained in the next chapter?
C) Not stop and not save any new progress (neither the progress of the chapter just re-played, nor that of the next chapter) to make sure no progress at all is erased (but making for sure the Chapter selection option totally useless for whoever hopes to collect easily what they missed).

In conclusion, I strongly believe these questions should be addressed and answered clearly in your next game. There's really no need for a game to cause frustration to the player for lack of warning that the player, beyond a certain point, won't get the chance to go back for treasure hunting, unless by re-playing the entire game. And if an option gives the impression to the player that it is there to allow collecting what they missed after the game is over, it should be made dead clear what the impact would be on the saved progress so far: erased, ignored, updated?

One last thing: my frustration came all the more bitter as the game, in itself, is really a joy to play! Hyper-responsive controls, beautiful scenes and landcapes, clever and rich writing, well-thought features (like the possibility to skip cutscenes, to save any time [even though it is unclear what exactly the game saves, as when loading a save, the game puts us back to the previous checkpoint], to allow drumming with both hands for really cool tribal effects and an excellent level-design which is not too much in-your-face obvious where to go while still not being confusing either...).

So, the fall from my cloud hurt all the more my cloud was that nice and comfy...

Thank you for reading me (hopefully).

[Sahin Cengiz]

Fantastic analysis, thank you! We are taking these comments to heart in future games. And I agree with a lot of it! We've also learned a bunch during development and we are definitely reading through all feedback.

The game was actually never developed as an open world. It is at its core a linear game. In a linear game it's not really expected to return to roam around all the places. Skábma can be Speedran in around 45minutes, so it first _felt_ okay that anyone wanting to hunt for collectibles can just play the game again.

But the frustration you mentioned is, understandably, coming from the fact that the game is actually kind of in the middle of linear and open! It's partly quite sandboxy. The game changed and evolved during development. It actually started as an around ~2h long game similar to Journey! (with like 1/30th of the budget of that game x) ) It was simply very difficult to redesign/rework everything to fit into what it had become - even if we had wanted to. Our resources were always small, and naturally there are just honest oversights there too! We are learning and evolving here too - and it's going to benefit the next games.

And we have remedied some of the issues with the newer features you mentioned!

"Collectibles Found" info in the Pause Menu:
- It always accurately shows exactly how many collectibles you can find in the current Area, taking into account what abilities you have at that point.
- The numbers change when you go through a "loading corridor" to a new area. So if you are at the Village area, you see what you can find at the Village. If you then move to the Sledge Field area, it shows what you can find in that location.

Chapter Selection also works similarly:
- It shows what you have missed and can find in a specific location with the abilities you have at that point of the game.
- Chapter Selection saves all this info throughout all of your save files. This includes all Collectibles, Dialogue and Wandering Spirits. You can, for example, select Chapter 7 where you have all the abilities => go collect as many as you find => go back to the chapter selection and it has now updated the lists of what you are still missing.
- You can freely go back and forth to every point of the game with the Chapter Select and find everything. Once you have collected all collectibles and talked to everyone, you can use the Chapter Selection to go to the last chapter (Chapter 10) and return all the collectibles to the Villagers.
- You don't even need make new saves when jumping between chapters. Just go to a chapter, collect things, and return to Title Screen. The data that you have collected something or talked to someone is saved instantly.
- In short: Chapter Select can be used to get ALL achievements and missed content in the game, without needing to play through it from start to finish.

Last but not least: thank you so much for the praise and kind words! I showed this to everyone here and all of Red Stage is giddily blushing from your comments! Thank you for playing the game! :)

[swoo703]

Origineel geplaatst door Sahin Cengiz:

Fantastic analysis, thank you! We are taking these comments to heart in future games. And I agree with a lot of it! We've also learned a bunch during development and we are definitely reading through all feedback.

The game was actually never developed as an open world. It is at its core a linear game. In a linear game it's not really expected to return to roam around all the places. Skábma can be Speedran in around 45minutes, so it first _felt_ okay that anyone wanting to hunt for collectibles can just play the game again.

But the frustration you mentioned is, understandably, coming from the fact that the game is actually kind of in the middle of linear and open! It's partly quite sandboxy. The game changed and evolved during development. It actually started as an around ~2h long game similar to Journey! (with like 1/30th of the budget of that game x) ) It was simply very difficult to redesign/rework everything to fit into what it had become - even if we had wanted to. Our resources were always small, and naturally there are just honest oversights there too! We are learning and evolving here too - and it's going to benefit the next games.

And we have remedied some of the issues with the newer features you mentioned!

"Collectibles Found" info in the Pause Menu:
- It always accurately shows exactly how many collectibles you can find in the current Area, taking into account what abilities you have at that point.
- The numbers change when you go through a "loading corridor" to a new area. So if you are at the Village area, you see what you can find at the Village. If you then move to the Sledge Field area, it shows what you can find in that location.

Chapter Selection also works similarly:
- It shows what you have missed and can find in a specific location with the abilities you have at that point of the game.
- Chapter Selection saves all this info throughout all of your save files. This includes all Collectibles, Dialogue and Wandering Spirits. You can, for example, select Chapter 7 where you have all the abilities => go collect as many as you find => go back to the chapter selection and it has now updated the lists of what you are still missing.
- You can freely go back and forth to every point of the game with the Chapter Select and find everything. Once you have collected all collectibles and talked to everyone, you can use the Chapter Selection to go to the last chapter (Chapter 10) and return all the collectibles to the Villagers.
- You don't even need make new saves when jumping between chapters. Just go to a chapter, collect things, and return to Title Screen. The data that you have collected something or talked to someone is saved instantly.
- In short: Chapter Select can be used to get ALL achievements and missed content in the game, without needing to play through it from start to finish.

Last but not least: thank you so much for the praise and kind words! I showed this to everyone here and all of Red Stage is giddily blushing from your comments! Thank you for playing the game! :)

Hi, Sahin Cengiz. Sorry for replying so late to your very generous answer. I feel honoured you came and read all my brick wall and replied back!

Your message helped me realise that MB's message in the beginning dated back to a time when Skábma had not yet been updated with, among other features, Chapter Selection. And it made me realise, at the same time, that the Chapter Selection feature had been implemented precisely to solve most of the problems MB was pointing out.

Thus, I fear my long comment was all the more unfair because it was coming from my lack of knowledge of the game's updates history and that many of my criticism was already solved.

This makes me even more humbled that you took the time to get back to me...

So, it seems only fair that I get you updated of what happened since then.

Right after I had written my comment and before you replied, I started a brand new playthrough of the game, determined to find all the collectibles (with the help of Carrot Helper's useful walkthrough).

Doing so, I realised two things I had missed noticing during my first playthrough:
1) The special compass feature to display dialog markers. Very useful indeed. But this "discovery" brings a little bit of criticism again about that. I "discovered" it when the tip note popped up in the corner of my screen at the beginning of the game. Seeing this tip, I remembered I did see it during my first playthrough but didn't want to use the feature because I thought it was like an "eagle vision" helper which would make things too easy for me. Maybe the pop up tip could specify this feature is very much advised for 100% completion? Especially because never again the game reminds the player this feature exists...
2) I feel really dumb confessing this but I didn't realise the yellow dots on the map were the collectible markers nor that they actually were disappearing after the item was collected! That discovery really changed my treasure hunting experience a lot! I also realised that the current active area was highlighted slightly. I clearly overlooked the map feature and I feel sorry, once again, for that.

Only then did I read your reply and understood my judgement was probably unfair. Yet, as I had started a new playthrough, I decided to keep going this way, paying attention to the map, the numbers in the pause menu and the compass, with Carrot Helper's walkthrough as a safety nest.

I'm glad to say it helped me get 100% in the end (except for 5/50 Wandering Spirits that I missed and for which the walkthrough wasn't helpful as it totally ignores them) but I was pleasantly surprised to see I did so before reaching the end of the game. Which was, for me, a sign that, indeed, the collectibles found are saved throughout all the saved games. Which is a very useful feature for treasure hunting.

So, in short, I could have used Chapter Selection like you were telling me. I didn't because I had already started a new game but I definitely could have used it.

So, just to make it clear for anyone trying to read this post:

---

CHAPTER SELECTION DOES REALLY WORK!! USE IT FOR TREASURE HUNTING. IT'S GREAT!!! :-D

---

Finally, I'd like to add a few more compliments about your game that I forgot to mention in my previous message:
- Amazing that you designed an automatic respawn when Ailu is being stuck in a falling animation for too long! So little games have this feature and this can be very problematic for players like me who enjoy trying to go OOB ("out of bounds") and usually get stuck in the process. The very fact you thought about implementing a softlock-preventer in your game is truly sensational!! Please be proud of this as so many game designers should take a leaf or two out of your book! :-D
- Gorgeous soundtrack and great quality voice-over actors (even though I don't understand Sami language, the tone and intonation is clearly identifiable and the sound recordings are excellent).
- All in all, very few bugs, which shows the great work of the programmers in your team. Something all the more important to mention for a first project from a small team.
- Delicate colour palette and light effects together with nicely shaped 3D models that give a very nice and recognisable touch to the whole experience.

This game truly has a heart and a soul and some beautifully carved-in-the-dark stones in it. ;-)

To conclude, I'll just quote what some likeable little fellow once said: "art without resource?" Yes you did!

[Sahin Cengiz]

Thank you so much for all the kind words, from all of Red Stage! No nook or cranny seems to be out of your reach, and we are honored you've had such a long journey with the game! Your feedback (including the criticism too) are all taken to heart. All the best to you :)