Renault FT

[Niliu]

The Renault FT was the MOST important tank in history, yet is little more than a footnote in this game. It's quite literally called the "Victory Tank".

The FT was the first tank to incorporate the "modern" design of a cannon on a swivel mount. Renault couldn't make them all fast enough, so they outsourced to other companies, and waived royalty fees, as the good of the nation was more important than the good of his company.

During the 1918 spring offensive by the Germans, a group of just 30 FTs broke up a German advance. All gains from the Spring Offensive were undone by swarms of FT tanks overwhelming German positions.

The FT was also the model from which tanks were developed by every other nation.
- The US was supplied the designs when they entered the war LATE (as usual) and used them to make the M1917, which the US failed to successfully produce before the war ended, and the US made use of 144 FTs instead.
- Italy failed to use their FTs, and from them made the Fiat 3000, Italy's first homemade tank.
- Russia was provided with many FTs as Russia was an Entente power until the Civil War killed the Tsar's and Russia betrayed the World with the Red Army. The Red Army then used the RTs they illegally possessed to make the T-18, their first tank, and the basis for all subsequent tanks.

[blackhand_lost]

Originally posted by Niliu:

- Russia was provided with many FTs as Russia was an Entente power until the Civil War killed the Tsar's and Russia betrayed the World with the Red Army. The Red Army then used the RTs they illegally possessed to make the T-18, their first tank, and the basis for all subsequent tanks.

Nice way to say the Entente sent them to support the Whites in the Civil war, and the Reds took them as trophies

I think the devs should add a laurel wreath on top of its turret, would that be enough for you?

[Niliu]

Originally posted by blackhand_lost:

Originally posted by Niliu:

- Russia was provided with many FTs as Russia was an Entente power until the Civil War killed the Tsar's and Russia betrayed the World with the Red Army. The Red Army then used the RTs they illegally possessed to make the T-18, their first tank, and the basis for all subsequent tanks.

Nice way to say the Entente sent them to support the Whites in the Civil war, and the Reds took them as trophies:lunar2019grinningpig:

I think the devs should add a laurel wreath on top of its turret, would that be enough for you?

The Reds betrayed the Entente powers.

[blackhand_lost]

Originally posted by Niliu:

The Reds betrayed the Entente powers.

I don't think you can betray someone you never pledged allegiance to but sure thing dude just chill. It happened more than a century ago but I see the wound is deep lol

[EstebanT]

I must admit too that I'm surprised german tanks are so awesome in this game, while in WW1 germany globally missed the tank trend.

FT17 was produced to 3000 more pieces, while A7V was near experimental build

A7V like 20 ? No industrial production : all were made as unique models.
A7V has a huge engine compared to other WW1 tanks. But its track were severely lacking for WW1 battle fields (a bit like early french tanks). It could hardly fight outsides of roads or very stable open fields).And its prowess against male MK V was not good. So ? Really better than MK V ? hard to say

A7V aside it is the small Krupp one in this game that seem far too good. So many people and machine gun in a light tank with a turret 'on top' ? They seem hardly bigger than the FT17* and if you have the chance to see one IRL you understand you can hardly pack more than 2 guys on such a small Tanks. So LK2 Krupp ? Seems a bit unrealistic ?
I can't find relaible info on those. Did they exist ?
Ok *edit* found it. Looks nice and it could have been a fantastic oponent on paper. But it was a tank planned for 1919. It appears too soon in the game

If I remember well, Germany made a 'joint venture' with Soviets between the two worlds war to experiment and learn on tanks.

I can't help but feel the success of WW2 panzer drove the developers to boost germans WW1 tanks characteristics, but I'm no tank expert, so correct me if I'm wrong

(* the one I saw was parked next to... a tiger (maybe even a Tiger II. can't remember). It made a very funny contrast. I guess the tiger could drive over a FT17 with no problem)

[jsmxiii]

I think as they are now there is still quite a bit of polishing to do with the tanks in the game.
The Renault FT-17 sucks far too bad right now, not being able to win any bids in its original configuration.

[Niliu]

Originally posted by jsmxiii:

I think as they are now there is still quite a bit of polishing to do with the tanks in the game.
The Renault FT-17 sucks far too bad right now, not being able to win any bids in its original configuration.

Which is funny, cause it's the one everyone wanted in the interwar period.

[jsmxiii]

Originally posted by Niliu:

Originally posted by jsmxiii:

I think as they are now there is still quite a bit of polishing to do with the tanks in the game.
The Renault FT-17 sucks far too bad right now, not being able to win any bids in its original configuration.

Which is funny, cause it's the one everyone wanted in the interwar period.

I don't know if that is strictly true, but it certainly had a huge impact and the bestseller of the interwar years, the Vickers 6-ton, owed a lot to the FT-17 (as did all tanks coming after).
I think there is also a case to be made that the FT-17s 37 mm is not strictly "hard" firepower (basically zero penetration with 30 grams of explosives which means it can destroy anything that a hand grenade or a MG could destroy).

[Niliu]

Originally posted by jsmxiii:

Originally posted by Niliu:

Which is funny, cause it's the one everyone wanted in the interwar period.

I don't know if that is strictly true, but it certainly had a huge impact and the bestseller of the interwar years, the Vickers 6-ton, owed a lot to the FT-17 (as did all tanks coming after).
I think there is also a case to be made that the FT-17s 37 mm is not strictly "hard" firepower (basically zero penetration with 30 grams of explosives which means it can destroy anything that a hand grenade or a MG could destroy).

Well that's just it, it was designed as an infantry repellent. You only need enough armour to resist what the infantry can throw at you, and anti-tank wasn't really a thing then, then mow the infantry down with the cannon and MG.

That's how they broke the German advance I mentioned, the Germans couldn't take them out, and had nowhere to hide in the open fields west of the trenches.

[EstebanT]

When I hear "light tank' I imagine something like WW2 light tanks which have a very light armor compared to medium or heavy tanks.

But it seems the FT17 had similar or better armor than other WW1 tanks.

Also it seems A7V had bad armor due to good steel supply problem in germany and had to be built with subpar materials.

So ? light but hard (maybe like WW2 Matilda ?)

As for the 37mm gun I have no idea of its power (37 L 21 ?). The Panzer III tpo had only a 37mm gun to in WW2 (37 L 45 ? so twice as long, so probably quite a better punch), but the caliber alone gives no idea of an AP power (compare Sherman 75mm to panther 75mm for instance).

I found this :

Type d'obus Poids du projectile (g) Vitesse (m/s) Charge d'explosif (g)
Obus explosif Mle 1916 555 367 30
Obus explosif Mle 1937 555 440 56
Obus de rupture Mle 1892 m.24 (non coiffé) 500 388 15
Obus de rupture Mle 1935 (coiffé avec fausse ogive) 390 600 /
Obus ogival plein Mle 1916 455 402 nul

but I have no idea how it compares to Mark V 6 pounder or other tank guns of the aera
AP would be 0,5kg at 388 m/s
or 0,390kg at 600 m/s
or 0,455kg at 402 m/s

Wikipedia gives : 21mm of hard armor at 35° at 400m

A7V armor is 5 to 30mm. But bad quality. So ?
Would a FT17 penetrate a A7V at 400 m ?

(Panzer III is 0,7kg at 700 m/s So a bite more than twice power ? )

[Dirty Sanchez]

Originally posted by EstebanT:

When I hear "light tank' I imagine something like WW2 light tanks which have a very light armor compared to medium or heavy tanks.

But it seems the FT17 had similar or better armor than other WW1 tanks.

Also it seems A7V had bad armor due to good steel supply problem in germany and had to be built with subpar materials.

So ? light but hard (maybe like WW2 Matilda ?)

As for the 37mm gun I have no idea of its power (37 L 21 ?). The Panzer III tpo had only a 37mm gun to in WW2 (37 L 45 ? so twice as long, so probably quite a better punch), but the caliber alone gives no idea of an AP power (compare Sherman 75mm to panther 75mm for instance).

I found this :

Type d'obus Poids du projectile (g) Vitesse (m/s) Charge d'explosif (g)
Obus explosif Mle 1916 555 367 30
Obus explosif Mle 1937 555 440 56
Obus de rupture Mle 1892 m.24 (non coiffé) 500 388 15
Obus de rupture Mle 1935 (coiffé avec fausse ogive) 390 600 /
Obus ogival plein Mle 1916 455 402 nul

but I have no idea how it compares to Mark V 6 pounder or other tank guns of the aera
AP would be 0,5kg at 388 m/s
or 0,390kg at 600 m/s
or 0,455kg at 402 m/s

Wikipedia gives : 21mm of hard armor at 35° at 400m

A7V armor is 5 to 30mm. But bad quality. So ?
Would a FT17 penetrate a A7V at 400 m ?

(Panzer III is 0,7kg at 700 m/s So a bite more than twice power ? )

Kinetic Energy=1/2m*v²
Velocity is king when it comes to AP penetration. For HE, knetic energy doesnt matter.

For your values, the muzzle energies are:
0,5 Kg at 388 m/s ==>37,6 KJ
0,39 Kg at 600 m/s ==>36,8 KJ
0,455 Kg at 402 m/s ==> 36,8 KJ

For the 37mm in the Panzer III with your values is the muzzle energy at 171,5 KJ.
Wikipedia states values for this gun ( with Pzgr. 39) of 0,685 Kg at 760 m/s. that results in a muzzle energy of 197,8 KJ. Over five times the energy of the FT-17´s gun (according to your values)

But I have to say, the 3,7 cm L/45 was pretty much a pre-series gun (for Panzer III) and only used till Panzer III Ausf.E. Untill this point, in total only about 150 Panzer III had been build. The most common versions had the 5 cm L/42 or L/60 installed. The 3,7 cm just had not enough power against WW2 enemies. It was called "Panzeranklopfgerät" (which is "tank knocking device" in english) by the soldiers cause the granade showed almost no effect on heavier tanks and only told the enemy from which directioin the fire comes.

Edit:

I found for the QF 6-pounder Hotchkiss a projectile weight of 2,72 Kg( well, 6 pounds i guess :p) and a muzzle velocity of 538 m/s. this results in a muzzle energy of 393.6 KJ, over ten times as much as the FT-17.

[blackhand_lost]

I don't think it would penetrate A7V front armor from 400 meters, it's 30mm and the 20mm segment is hard to hit and has a sharper angle.

As for armor, anti-canon armor wasn't a thing really at that time, FT 17 had thicker armor than most other tanks because it was very small, so weight was a lesser issue.

I don't know how you compare it to Matilda that weights 26 tons.

[EstebanT]

So I guess FT17 would have a hard time against a A7V. But a Mark V not (I am surprised the mark V shot is twice as powerfull as a Panzer III ! I would not have bet a single cent on it !)

On the other side, the A7V gun is quite stronger than FT17 so it would penetrate with no problem ?

Adding to that the FT17 is slow as a slug.

So the main power of FT17 is being build on an industrial scale and fighting en masse ?
Plus the turret of course that may give it some hope to fight against fixed point guns...

The only tank fight of WWI was between one mark V and 3 A7V right ? And the Mark V won ?

edit : are you sure the numbers for the 6 pounder is not for the WWII 6 pounder gun ?

[jsmxiii]

@EstebanT:
Regarding the Second Battle of Villers-Bretonneux, three A7V where fighting three Mark IVs and seven Whippets (at least).
Two Mark IVs, female ones, dropped back when the German machineguns could penetrate them but they were unable to achieve penetrationg against the A7V, then the lone male Mark IVs hit the lead A7V and destroyed it.
The two remaining A7V withdrew and seven Whippets attacked the unacompanied infantry, which killed three of them.
And the male Mark IV was then knocked out by a mortar shell.
If anything it shows that tanks were very much not a mature technology and infantry and artillery were still more than a match for them.

[Dirty Sanchez]

Originally posted by EstebanT:

So I guess FT17 would have a hard time against a A7V. But a Mark V not (I am surprised the mark V shot is twice as powerfull as a Panzer III ! I would not have bet a single cent on it !)

On the other side, the A7V gun is quite stronger than FT17 so it would penetrate with no problem ?

Adding to that the FT17 is slow as a slug.

So the main power of FT17 is being build on an industrial scale and fighting en masse ?
Plus the turret of course that may give it some hope to fight against fixed point guns...

The only tank fight of WWI was between one mark V and 3 A7V right ? And the Mark V won ?

edit : are you sure the numbers for the 6 pounder is not for the WWII 6 pounder gun ?

I am sure this is the WW1 version of the 6-pounder, the WW2 version was way more powerfull. But I accidently took the date of the naval version. It was only in the first tanks. Later they switched the barrel cause of mobility issues. The tank version had a shorter barrel which results in lower muzzle velocity of only 411m/s. This results in a muzzle energy of 229,7 KJ. Sorry, my bad.

I dont think it was the only tank fight, but it was the first one. It was between 3 Mark IV (1 male, 2 female) and 1 A7V. Both females were heavily damaged as well as the A7V. The A7V withdrew and broke down after some Km through engine failure. Crew members of the male were wounded and later it was destroyed by artillery. I would call it a draw.

In terms of penetration, its hard to tell. Depends on range, angle, material, shape of the projectile and so on. Maybe you could ask Dejmian xyz or SY Simulations on Youtube to make a FEM simulation. Or maybe somebody has already done one.

Edit:

Haha, I see there is quite a difference between german and english wikipedia article of the A7V and the first tank battle.

[Hanz]

Yes i was surprised when i found out this. I mean i looked forward to being able to built first "proper" tank with "proper" turret and then... WHAT?!?
There should be major stat bonus for the modern FT-17 design with comparission with other WW1 tanks, like maybe adding some bonus for that turret and bonus for much easier maintenance.