Banana peel slip: should it count as Accident?

[aqarohn]

I'm playing Freelancer and imho it should be, I've had a Silent Assassin run get ruined over this. I can't think of a realistic reason why anyone would think there was criminal intent behind someone slipping over a peel of a banana lol.
Realistically, anyone could have left the peel there simply out of disregard for littering laws, like surely there doesn't exist an evil organization of people who purposefully leave banana peels around for the exact purpose of shattering unsuspecting passerbys' dropping arses, not even in the Hitman universe, right? How would anyone find that suspicious? Wet pavement puddles no problem, exploding fire extinguishers no problem, but banana peels is where you draw the line? lel

There was this hilarious scene where I let a Syndicate Leader slip over a banana peel and initiate an Escape after he got back up, I bet the guards must have thought "Hmm, my boss slipped over some banana peel OBVIOUSLY they're trying to kill him" xddd

I just find this all so silly haha

[Material Defender]

I think the problem you are having is cause knocked out targets (and suspects in freelancer) are never accidental, mainly due to a fix of a bug in hitman 2 (2018), when the kalmer1 was added into the series.

The bug was, if you shot a target with a kalmer, then let em finish the animation, the target would be considered poisoned/accidental knockout and thus keep silent assassin (yes, I know there's a difference between poisoning and accidental, but for the purposes of this example, both will be considered the same). The real bug happened when during the poisoning animation, before falling asleep, you could shoot the target in the head with a pistol, and still keep silent assassin.

[Kunovega]

It's an accident when not used on a target. It's not an accident when used on a target, and the reason is as Material Defender explained. They fixed an exploit by making it this way instead of coming up with a better solution.

It's the same for any knockout/sleep methods you use, they are accidents on non targets, but raise alerts and break silent assassin on targets. It's been this way for I think around 3 years now, but from 2016 to around 2020 you used to be able to sleep/accident targets the same as any non target and have it be treated like an accident instead of making an alert.

It's something I first took notice of with elusive targets, you used to be able for example to sleep dart the general in santa fortuna and he would fall asleep and fall off the pier into the water for an accident kill. Now if he falls asleep and falls in you still fail silent assassin.

It's become a much more wide spread and obvious problem with freelancer mode being added. But they show no signs of reversing this decision and properly fixing the other exploit that brought us here.

[Riggleby]

Originally posted by Material Defender:

The real bug happened when during the poisoning animation, before falling asleep, you could shoot the target in the head with a pistol, and still keep silent assassin.

That bug was never fixed in H2. It was placed into the "HITMAN 2 Backlog" when they finished patching the game for good. Its listed under "Known Issues" in the final H2 patch notes: https://ioi.dk/hidden/h2-patchnotes

However they never went back to it for H3 and is still doable in H3/WoA to this day. Here's some gameplay I literally just captured of it in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKvvQuE-Fqw

Therefore the accidential KOs voiding SA on targets is completely unrelated to this bug you've mentioned.

[Material Defender]

Originally posted by Riggleby:

Originally posted by Material Defender:

The real bug happened when during the poisoning animation, before falling asleep, you could shoot the target in the head with a pistol, and still keep silent assassin.

That bug was never fixed in H2. It was placed into the "HITMAN 2 Backlog" when they finished patching the game for good. Its listed under "Known Issues" in the final H2 patch notes: https://ioi.dk/hidden/h2-patchnotes

However they never went back to it for H3 and is still doable in H3/WoA to this day. Here's some gameplay I literally just captured of it in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKvvQuE-Fqw

Therefore the accidential KOs voiding SA on targets is completely unrelated to this bug you've mentioned.

Just because it wasn't fixed in H2, doesn't mean it could not get fixed in hitman 3.

All you shown was that there was a way around it using the Goldbrick Proximity Mine and ICA Micro Remote Explosive.

Ever considered trying to shoot him from the meeting room? you have a clear line of sight there.

[Riggleby]

Originally posted by Material Defender:

Just because it wasn't fixed in H2, doesn't mean it could not get fixed in hitman 3.

I never claimed that it couldn't be fixed? You inaccurately said it was fixed in H2. All I said was that you were incorrect and that the bug still exists today in both H2 and H3/WoA.

Originally posted by Material Defender:

All you shown was that there was a way around it using the Goldbrick Proximity Mine and ICA Micro Remote Explosive.

It's all the same bug. It was never restricted to just a Kalmer and a bullet. It was any sedative that doesn't void SA and any kill method. You can do the exact same thing in H2 (albeit with a different sedative item since H2 doesn't have the snail) with no issues.

The game simply has no way to correctly process a target dying while in a middle of a KO animation from an item that doesn't void SA while also allowing the body to be found to invalidate SA.

[aqarohn]

Originally posted by Kunovega:

It's an accident when not used on a target. It's not an accident when used on a target, and the reason is as Material Defender explained. They fixed an exploit by making it this way instead of coming up with a better solution.

It's the same for any knockout/sleep methods you use, they are accidents on non targets, but raise alerts and break silent assassin on targets. It's been this way for I think around 3 years now, but from 2016 to around 2020 you used to be able to sleep/accident targets the same as any non target and have it be treated like an accident instead of making an alert.

It's something I first took notice of with elusive targets, you used to be able for example to sleep dart the general in santa fortuna and he would fall asleep and fall off the pier into the water for an accident kill. Now if he falls asleep and falls in you still fail silent assassin.

It's become a much more wide spread and obvious problem with freelancer mode being added. But they show no signs of reversing this decision and properly fixing the other exploit that brought us here.

Originally posted by Riggleby:

Originally posted by Material Defender:

Just because it wasn't fixed in H2, doesn't mean it could not get fixed in hitman 3.

I never claimed that it couldn't be fixed? You inaccurately said it was fixed in H2. All I said was that you were incorrect and that the bug still exists today in both H2 and H3/WoA.

Originally posted by Material Defender:

All you shown was that there was a way around it using the Goldbrick Proximity Mine and ICA Micro Remote Explosive.

It's all the same bug. It was never restricted to just a Kalmer and a bullet. It was any sedative that doesn't void SA and any kill method. You can do the exact same thing in H2 (albeit with a different sedative item since H2 doesn't have the snail) with no issues.

The game simply has no way to correctly process a target dying while in a middle of a KO animation from an item that doesn't void SA while also allowing the body to be found to invalidate SA.

Hmmm this is some very interesting information indeed, thank you for sharing. The "knockout accidents fail SA on targets in order to thwart the kill exploit" seems like a placeholder solution rather than a definitive one, has IO mentioned any plans to fix it properly or are they too busy on the famous 007 game? I hope not, I don't care about Bond, I want my boy 47 to not fail SA over this thing

[Kunovega]

They rarely mention changes like this ahead of time and sometimes don't even mention them when implemented, there's been so many rules changes to this series over the last 7 years across the trilogy that it's sometimes hard to remember which rules are currently in effect without testing them if it's an edge case you rarely encounter.

I still remember when they removed breaking cameras with thrown objects was removed as being "overpowered" and now they've brought it back with an even more powerful form (you can actually lock on, where as the original you had to toss-aim without lock on); and it was only allowed for around the first year; then removed it for 5 years and brought back earlier this year stronger than before...

I could write you a novel on the other inconsistent changes; but I'm kinda over it after all these years.

[Devang]

@OP I would love for it to work correctly on targets as well, as it does for non-targets

I love making Ljudmila Vetrova or Noel Crest be knocked out and fall into water by placing either a banana or sedative chewing gum in their path. Unfortunately, it counts as a melee kill i.e. no Silent Assassin. This was my original plan for Haven SASO back when it released for H2

[Kunovega]

Originally posted by Devang:

@OP I would love for it to work correctly on targets as well, as it does for non-targets

I love making Ljudmila Vetrova or Noel Crest be knocked out and fall into water by placing either a banana or sedative chewing gum in their path. Unfortunately, it counts as a melee kill i.e. no Silent Assassin. This was my original plan for Haven SASO back when it released for H2

Sedative chewing gum wasn't in H2, it was added with H3

And back when Haven was released for H2 it was still possible to knock out main targets with sedatives without breaking SA; and if they fell and died while knocked out it was an accident kill.

If that had been your plan back when Haven was released, it would have worked. But you would have needed to use banana or sedative darts or poisons to do it since the chewing gum is an H3 DLC release as are the changes that stop you from getting an SA with sedatives on targets.

[Devang]

Originally posted by Kunovega:

Originally posted by Devang:

@OP I would love for it to work correctly on targets as well, as it does for non-targets

I love making Ljudmila Vetrova or Noel Crest be knocked out and fall into water by placing either a banana or sedative chewing gum in their path. Unfortunately, it counts as a melee kill i.e. no Silent Assassin. This was my original plan for Haven SASO back when it released for H2

Sedative chewing gum wasn't in H2, it was added with H3

And back when Haven was released for H2 it was still possible to knock out main targets with sedatives without breaking SA; and if they fell and died while knocked out it was an accident kill.

If that had been your plan back when Haven was released, it would have worked. But you would have needed to use banana or sedative darts or poisons to do it since the chewing gum is an H3 DLC release as are the changes that stop you from getting an SA with sedatives on targets.

Should be quite obvious what I'm saying i.e. which item for which target

Tried to use the banana on Ljudmilla when Haven was released for H2. IIRC the banana was a new item added with Haven, with a spawn in the pantry room. I'm quite sure they had patched out the headshot sedated targets exploit by the time Haven released, so the banana in the lounge pool thing didn't work either. It counted as a melee kill as far as I remember. I did Haven SASO quite early upon Haven's release, so I clearly remember it not working. I ended up getting rid of Jason Portman and loosening the trapdoor in his bathroom so Ljudmilla would fall through it. I also vaguely remember this counting for the 'Hold My Hair' challenge

The sedative gum is obviously a 7DS exclusive and was for Noel Crest whose map released last July. I already knew it wouldn't work, but I did it for fun anyways. Did the same for Ljudmilla again which I remember because I had to reposition the gum a few times so that her guard doesn't pick it up. Both were obviously counted as melee kills

[Kunovega]

Originally posted by Devang:

Originally posted by Kunovega:

Sedative chewing gum wasn't in H2, it was added with H3

And back when Haven was released for H2 it was still possible to knock out main targets with sedatives without breaking SA; and if they fell and died while knocked out it was an accident kill.

If that had been your plan back when Haven was released, it would have worked. But you would have needed to use banana or sedative darts or poisons to do it since the chewing gum is an H3 DLC release as are the changes that stop you from getting an SA with sedatives on targets.

Should be quite obvious what I'm saying i.e. which item for which target

Tried to use the banana on Ljudmilla when Haven was released for H2. IIRC the banana was a new item added with Haven, with a spawn in the pantry room. I'm quite sure they had patched out the headshot sedated targets exploit by the time Haven released, so the banana in the lounge pool thing didn't work either. It counted as a melee kill as far as I remember. I did Haven SASO quite early upon Haven's release, so I clearly remember it not working. I ended up getting rid of Jason Portman and loosening the trapdoor in his bathroom so Ljudmilla would fall through it. I also vaguely remember this counting for the 'Hold My Hair' challenge

The sedative gum is obviously a 7DS exclusive and was for Noel Crest whose map released last July. I already knew it wouldn't work, but I did it for fun anyways. Did the same for Ljudmilla again which I remember because I had to reposition the gum a few times so that her guard doesn't pick it up. Both were obviously counted as melee kills

The headshot exploit was not patched out when Haven was released.

There was a different bug that sometimes counted drowning as melee, but it was a locational issue unrelated to the sedative / SA discussion from this thread. That bug still exists and has nothing to do with the changes being talked about here.

And no, it's not obvious what you were talking about when you said you intended to use the gum (which didn't exist) for Haven when it released.

What's being discussed here is that accidental knockouts and sedatives on targets currently do not count as accidents, that's a change that absolutely was not made when Haven launched and the headshot exploit was not fixed at the time.

What you seem to be talking about is the melee glitch in certain locations when a target drowns and it doesn't get counted as an accident. That's not the same thing as the target not counting as an accidental knockout the way a non-target is.

[supersand]

I learned this the hard way after trying to figure out why my SA just randomly got ruined after using sedatives or pseduo sedatives like the banana. Don't drag the body, at all, unless it is to a bin. If 47 runs his dirty little fingers on that sleeping body they will suddenly know it was a dirty scene.

Also sedating targets I'm pretty sure will negate SA too, so don't use sedatives on them unless isolated.

It is pretty funny tho that agent 47's comical acts of malintent are so well known the in the Hitman world that a banana peel could be a tell to his presence.