Can't JRPG grow up?

[Jarsonne]

I'd like a civil exchange to understand from what comes those JRPG cliché.

1. Forced male teen main character
Ok I get it's probably easier to sell games having a male main character than female, perhaps ignore this, even if it bores me.

But why teen and teen and teen again? I can't bear those JTPG male teen main characters. From what comes this?

Are Japanese teens and kids want be teens forever and don't want grow up adult? I vaguely remind it was a recurrent expectation to become adult finally, and often some adults saying enjoy this time. But at end, I/we was right, adult is much better than kid/teen and parents piloting you.

2. Bizarre combats looking basic
Why all need look the same weird face to face combats? It's clear there's at least tactic JRPG, that used combats on a grid, but still why so many JRPG need use again and again this similar combat system?

3. Forced kid companion
No matter how there's always companions clearly evoking kid, but who bring kids to wars? Very weird this weird thing needs be done again and again.

4. Others
In fact there's a myriad of JRPG cliché, but those three above seems those more impactful, so I'll skip make a long list.

[Selphea]

引用自 Zephyr Workshop：

this discussion isn't about the validity of the classifications. OP said before that maybe has picked the wrong words, but that's why I said stick to the discription, stick to the stuff that applies to what OP means.

We can't debate if we don't know what's being debated.

This is the problem I see: OP has some complaints about JRPG tropes, but we haven't defined JRPG yet so it's impossible to debate. There's a lot of "this game doesn't have these tropes" "But it's not a JRPG!". Unfortunately we have to try and define it otherwise we'll end up going in circles.

And I completely acknowledge we're going in circles trying to find a definition too 😆

[Jarsonne]

引用自 Overeagerdragon：

strategic RPG's with not a hint of strategy in them for example

You mean SRPG? Because they always been named Tactical RPG, it smells a new tag creation from players unable to make a difference between Tactical and Strategy and want name everything strategy because for them it look cooler and smarter.

[Jarsonne]

引用自 Selphea：

引用自 Zephyr Workshop：

this discussion isn't about the validity of the classifications. OP said before that maybe has picked the wrong words, but that's why I said stick to the discription, stick to the stuff that applies to what OP means.

We can't debate if we don't know what's being debated.

This is the problem I see: OP has some complaints about JRPG tropes, but we haven't defined JRPG yet so it's impossible to debate. There's a lot of "this game doesn't have these tropes" "But it's not a JRPG!". Unfortunately we have to try and define it otherwise we'll end up going in circles.

And I completely acknowledge we're going in circles trying to find a definition too 😆

I agree, and hadn't suspected the tag had became such a garbage with anything and everything.

For sure if JPRG means RPG made by Japanese, I don't care at all of the tag meaning nothing interesting for me.

And then I never really wondered what was meaning JPRG nowadays, so it was some games I checked last decade, tagged JRPG and looking like JRPG even if I hadn't a clear definition of it.

So if I need explain what JRPG means, clearly I don't know anymore.

[Overeagerdragon]

引用自 Jarsonne：

引用自 Overeagerdragon：

strategic RPG's with not a hint of strategy in them for example

You mean SRPG? Because they always been named Tactical RPG, it smells a new tag creation from players unable to make a difference between Tactical and Strategy and want name everything strategy because for them it look cooler and smarter.

not going into the difference between SRPG/TRPG....

Nah I mean games that have tags with not a hint of those tag's gameplay elements in them. To name the most blatant example of this... Check some of the more bargainbin hentai games on steam...most are just sliding puzzles but get tagged with stuff like Simulation, Resource Management, Choices Matter, Narrative Driven when it's obvious they have not a hint of those gameplay elements in them; the tags are just added so they show up in the discovery qeue (category lists) more

[Selphea]

How about instead of a broad definition, let's start with a narrow definition? Many RPGs are in a grey area e.g. anime style but open world action so it ends up being Schrodinger's JRPG. Heck if you click on the JRPG tag on Steam, it counts Monster Hunter as a JRPG! But we know those tropes exist.

I'd say games that follow those tropes tend to be Retro-style JRPGs. Retro as in they are either made many console eras ago (NES, Genesis, PS1 and so on), or heavily inspired by RPGs made by Japanese studios during those eras: turn-based gameplay, walking around on an open world then having the screen transition to combat like Zephyr Workshop described, maybe chibi pixel art characters.

So if they are Retro-style, then the goal is probably nostalgia. In which case it makes a lot of sense to follow the retro formula with generic characters, start off killing rats in a basement then fight God at the end. It's exactly the same reason people go to McDonald's.

Then the question becomes: are there games that have those tropes but aren't trying to be retro-style?

[Overeagerdragon]

引用自 Selphea：

How about instead of a broad definition, let's start with a narrow definition? Many RPGs are in a grey area e.g. anime style but open world action so it ends up being Schrodinger's JRPG. But we know those tropes exist.

I'd say games that follow those tropes tend to be Retro-style JRPGs. Retro as in they are either made many console eras ago (NES, Genesis, PS1 and so on), or heavily inspired by RPGs made by Japanese studios during those eras: turn-based gameplay, walking around on an open world then having the screen transition to combat like Zephyr Workshop described, maybe chibi pixel art characters.

So if they are Retro-style, then the goal is probably nostalgia. In which case it makes a lot of sense to follow the retro formula with generic characters, start off killing rats in a basement then fight God at the end. It's exactly the same reason people go to McDonald's.

Then the question becomes: are there games that have those tropes but aren't trying to be retro-style?

check out
Wild Arms (all the trimmings but with a more Trigun-design)
Phantasy Star (Al the trimmings but with an interactive combat system)
Shadow Hearts (You could argu this one does try for retro but with a modern story)
Vagrant Story (No overworld, random encounters...but deffo trying to be retro)

EDIT: Removed Othercide (but am naming it here) as it could be argued it's not complient with a lot of the tropes you named; No overworld, screentransition (random encounters) not retro.... but definitely a JRPG... so I guess Othercide is just weird then ?

EDIT2: Also where does this leave games like Secret of Mana, Secret of Evermoor, Illusion of Time? Those are not turnbased but I think you would piss off a lot of people if you now exclude them from the JRPG label xD

[Selphea]

引用自 Overeagerdragon：

check out
Wild Arms
Phantasy Star
Shadow Hearts
Vagrant Story

EDIT: Removed Othercide (but am naming it here) as it could be argued it's not complient with a lot of the tropes you named; No overworld, screentransition (random encounters) not retro.... but definitely a JRPG... so I guess Othercide is just weird then ?

EDIT2: Also where does this leave games like Secret of Mana, Secret of Evermoor, Illusion of Time? Those are not turnbased but I think you would piss off a lot of people if you now exclude them from the JRPG label xD

Games that follow the tropes OP mentioned are specifically going for the retro style of that era. Phantasy Star, Vagrant Story etc are retro because of the time period, and they are JRPGs. So they're not trying to be a Retro-style JRPG, they're just straight up Retro JRPGs if that makes sense. I'm trying to define the sub-genre of JRPG where the genre tropes are more common.

[Overeagerdragon]

引用自 Selphea：

引用自 Overeagerdragon：

check out
Wild Arms
Phantasy Star
Shadow Hearts
Vagrant Story

EDIT: Removed Othercide (but am naming it here) as it could be argued it's not complient with a lot of the tropes you named; No overworld, screentransition (random encounters) not retro.... but definitely a JRPG... so I guess Othercide is just weird then ?

EDIT2: Also where does this leave games like Secret of Mana, Secret of Evermoor, Illusion of Time? Those are not turnbased but I think you would piss off a lot of people if you now exclude them from the JRPG label xD

Games that follow the tropes OP mentioned are specifically going for the retro style of that era. Phantasy Star, Vagrant Story etc are retro because of the time period, and they are JRPGs. So they're not trying to be a Retro-style JRPG, they're just straight up Retro JRPGs if that makes sense

Yeah I'm making heavy edits as to explain why the definition doesn't fit as well.... Vagrant story doesn't have an overworld or random encounters; following more of a dungeon crawler ideology. I'm not saying it isn't a retro style RPG...just trying to point out where such narrow definitions start to produce friction.

Same with Phantasy Star... If you played it then you know it definitely has aspects but doesn't "feel" like a retro rpg with a combat system that's more intteractive and responsive (like Grandea 1/2 for example)..it also doesn't support the "classic" overworld design.

What I'm trying to say is that JRPG was always a muddy category to begin with... you could argue FFXII and onward are still JRPG but slowly lose the "retro" label...

And weren't we trying to descripe JRPG's? Isn't it disingenious to now ALREADY make a sublabel of Retro-JRPG ?

EDIT: In a sense...isn't the J already a sublabel of RPG?

[Jarsonne]

I would say that my complain is already targeted through the JRPG tag destruction, that seems be the current evolution.

Myself I regret it's that way, I'd prefer something I was tagging JRPG but evolving more than most did, but not up to become some ARPG or others.

[Selphea]

引用自 Overeagerdragon：

引用自 Selphea：

Games that follow the tropes OP mentioned are specifically going for the retro style of that era. Phantasy Star, Vagrant Story etc are retro because of the time period, and they are JRPGs. So they're not trying to be a Retro-style JRPG, they're just straight up Retro JRPGs if that makes sense

Yeah I'm making heavy edits as to explain why the definition doesn't fit as well.... Vagrant story doesn't have an overworld or random encounters; following more of a dungeon crawler ideology. I'm not saying it isn't a retro style RPG...just trying to point out where such narrow definitions start to produce friction.

Same with Phantasy Star... If you played it then you know it definitely has aspects but doesn't "feel" like a retro rpg with a combat system that's more intteractive and responsive (like Grandea 1/2 for example)..it also doesn't support the "classic" overworld design.

What I'm trying to say is that JRPG was always a muddy category to begin with... you could argue FFXII and onward are still JRPG but slowly lose the "retro" label...

And weren't we trying to descripe JRPG's? Isn't it disingenious to now ALREADY make a sublabel of Retro-JRPG ?

EDIT: In a sense...isn't the J already a sublabel of RPG?

I hope my amazing Google Slides skills can explain a bit better: https://imgur.com/UkqNqBa

Essentially I think OP is trying to find where's the best place to put the green circle, and I feel like it's somewhere near the red circle, and nowadays they're all part of a huge mush of other circles.

[Jarsonne]

FYI, I unsubscribe the thread, but it was fine, thanks for the nice posts, I just lost interest. :-) No problem related.

[tili1]

引用自 Jarsonne：

1. Forced male teen main character
But why teen and teen and teen again? I can't bear those JTPG male teen main characters. From what comes this?

The journey from child to man is a very popular plot device in fiction. It is as old as humans itself, just look at Sigurd or, even older, Perseus. The hero journey portraits the grow and change of its protagonist. It is just the type of story we like as humans.

Sure, it is cool to have some variety as ideas turn into cliché, but this will always be something that people will like.

引用自 Jarsonne：

2. Bizarre combats looking basic
Why all need look the same weird face to face combats? It's clear there's at least tactic JRPG, that used combats on a grid, but still why so many JRPG need use again and again this similar combat system?

The traditional JRPG turn based combat is the simplest/easiest form of combat that anyone could imagine. No need to simulate physics, movements, etc.
In a sense, it is lazy. On the other hand, it could also mean that the combat is secondary to the storyline: no need to use development resources on that, fans play these games for its own special sense of immersion.
I am not saying that I agree, but that is the thought behind it.

引用自 Jarsonne：

3. Forced kid companion
No matter how there's always companions clearly evoking kid, but who bring kids to wars? Very weird this weird thing needs be done again and again.

IRL, it is common to use kids in wars. And if by kids you mean tennagers, than it is even more common, just look at romans velites.
In the case of jrps, I believe it is simply cute to have small children around. Yes, jrpgs are not serious.
Said that, I would actually enjoy a low phantasy game without much magic and more serious tone. Japan doesn’t do that much (and America too), I don’t know why. Must be cultural.

[Selphea]

引用自 tili1：

Said that, I would actually enjoy a low phantasy game without much magic and more serious tone. Japan doesn’t do that much (and America too), I don’t know why. Must be cultural.

Try Valkyria Chronicles and Reverse Collapse: Codename Bakery, they're both pretty serious and low magic.

[Overeagerdragon]

引用自 Selphea：

引用自 Overeagerdragon：

Yeah I'm making heavy edits as to explain why the definition doesn't fit as well.... Vagrant story doesn't have an overworld or random encounters; following more of a dungeon crawler ideology. I'm not saying it isn't a retro style RPG...just trying to point out where such narrow definitions start to produce friction.

Same with Phantasy Star... If you played it then you know it definitely has aspects but doesn't "feel" like a retro rpg with a combat system that's more intteractive and responsive (like Grandea 1/2 for example)..it also doesn't support the "classic" overworld design.

What I'm trying to say is that JRPG was always a muddy category to begin with... you could argue FFXII and onward are still JRPG but slowly lose the "retro" label...

And weren't we trying to descripe JRPG's? Isn't it disingenious to now ALREADY make a sublabel of Retro-JRPG ?

EDIT: In a sense...isn't the J already a sublabel of RPG?

I hope my amazing Google Slides skills can explain a bit better: https://imgur.com/UkqNqBa

Essentially I think OP is trying to find where's the best place to put the green circle, and I feel like it's somewhere near the red circle, and nowadays they're all part of a huge mush of other circles.

I know what the OP's is trying to do and I'm not trying to be combatative about it. Actually; I'm trying to say actually what you just did xD

[Selphea]

引用自 Overeagerdragon：

I know what the OP's is trying to do and I'm not trying to be combatative about it. Actually; I'm trying to say actually what you just did xD

All good I just drew the diagram because it was hard to explain with just words 😆