Can't JRPG grow up?

[Jarsonne]

I'd like a civil exchange to understand from what comes those JRPG cliché.

1. Forced male teen main character
Ok I get it's probably easier to sell games having a male main character than female, perhaps ignore this, even if it bores me.

But why teen and teen and teen again? I can't bear those JTPG male teen main characters. From what comes this?

Are Japanese teens and kids want be teens forever and don't want grow up adult? I vaguely remind it was a recurrent expectation to become adult finally, and often some adults saying enjoy this time. But at end, I/we was right, adult is much better than kid/teen and parents piloting you.

2. Bizarre combats looking basic
Why all need look the same weird face to face combats? It's clear there's at least tactic JRPG, that used combats on a grid, but still why so many JRPG need use again and again this similar combat system?

3. Forced kid companion
No matter how there's always companions clearly evoking kid, but who bring kids to wars? Very weird this weird thing needs be done again and again.

4. Others
In fact there's a myriad of JRPG cliché, but those three above seems those more impactful, so I'll skip make a long list.

[Neonivek]

Publicado originalmente por Jarsonne:

I'd like a civil exchange to understand from what comes those JRPG cliché.

1. Forced male teen main character

2. Bizarre combats looking basic

3. Forced kid companion

4. Others.

1st: Japan has a very strong youth culture because of... well... effectively slave labor once you reach adulthood. So teens are usually the last time anyone remembers being happy. As for why "Male", ignoring all the JRPGs that star a woman or that allow you to play a woman... it is because the vast majority of game developers are male and the vast majority of JRPG players are male.

2nd: Its the Genre... It is kind of like complaining that there are scares in horror games.

3rd: Fair enough.

4th: It is the point. You are sort of collecting a ton of anime tropes in this game.

[Overeagerdragon]

Publicado originalmente por Jarsonne:

SinsOfHistory:
Thanks a lot of the efforts.

1: But when I was kid and teen I wanted be an adult asap, and no way I wanted read more books where kids are main characters, ok eventually bellow ten perhaps, but teen including young teen (12) never ever.

Why do you feel normal that teens what stories about teens? Kids and teens build them up on examples of adults not of example of kids or teens, common. But perhaps it's different for Japanese culture.

JRPG with adult main character, can you provide a selection?

2: Perhaps I over estimate the potential around TB combats, but for example, how the hell it's a non JRPG that had to invent the combat system of Darkest Dungeon?

I mean it's not they are TB combats which I fully understand when managing a party, but why it's 99% similar face to face to combats?

3: No it's a lot more spread than just this series.

Kids in medieval wars? Seriously? Teens looked at as adults and put in wars ok, young kids, I doubt it.

1. examples for adults protags: Shadow Hearts 1 & 2, Octopath Traveller, Nier GESTALT(note: NOT Replicant), Yakuza:Like a dragon, Nier:Automata, Parasite Eve, FF6, Legaia, Othercide (though it's debatable)

2: They didn't; in a sense it's the very same system except on a completely horizontal plane. Games like Agarest:Generations of war or the various trails series do it TB on a limited grid. Grandia has the ILLUSION of a battlefield but the combat is still pretty much a horizontal plane (the movement and counter system combined with ATB giving it the ILLUSION of depth but you have no actual free movement system). Library of Ruina pretty much does the same thing if you look at the systems involved. I would have to dig through my library on steam (and my bookcases of cartridges) to find you more examples.

Gotta note though that DD isn't an actual RPG; it's a roguelike with RPG elements but what roguelike doesn't have those these days? Deadcells allow you to build up stats, improve weapons etc etc; but isn't an RPG. Goblin Stone plays VERY MUCH like DD but isn't an RPG either.... and if you think it does... is Binding of Isaac an RPG then too? How about Roboquest? Crab Champions?

3: Teens is the widest audience they can appeal to... Teens like to relate (as do we; proven by your question in and of itself). Not to mention that teens have the most potential for character growth as they still need to "grow up"... Besides, and don't get me wrong here, sex sells.... would you rather have Isha be your main protagonist...or Lam ? Would you rather have Yuri and Karin (Shadowhearts 2) or Roger Bacon?
I think I can be honest enough to say I'd rather look at someone young spry and mutable (in mind.... geez you pervs xD) if I'm going to play something for 100+ hours than the wrinkled behind of some gruff old veteran who's already set in his ways without anything surprising him anymore

[Jarsonne]

Publicado originalmente por Xaito:

I recommend the Youtube video "The Birth of the Japanese RPG" by the channel "Game Maker's Toolkit" that explains most of the basic elements that make a JRPG a JRPG and the historic reasons behind them.
Two points that are especially relevant to the combat mechanics and the story tropes:

JRPG were inspired by early western RPG games which in tern were inspired by Dungeons & Dragons. So that's where the turn based combat comes from.

I knew that already but if you think it's different for non JRPG you are wrong, but it evolved.

Publicado originalmente por Xaito:

Western RPG games oftentimes preferred a more classic and mature fantasy setting, Japanese audience preferred a more Fairy Tale like setting.
And IMO a coming of age adventure kind of story is the base of some of the most successful franchises in that regard. Think the original Star Wars, Harry Potter.

I was watching quickly the video you quoted, and noticed first Japanese attempts to make a Wyzardry like, teen portraits, when in Wyzardry it's always been adults.

That's unrelated to any Fairy tale, purely main characters age.

My guess, Japanese have an ultra stronger auto censoring per culture, it creates both ultra auto censored stuff, and both ultra provoking stuff. And that auto censoring about main character age is that games are for kids and teens, and they don't need adult images to get inspiration from, but play their role, except that it's in an adult world even in the game, and for me this auto censoring is total non sense, at least myself I had more freedom in choosing my reading at least starting at young teen.

[valentino.lizal]

Publicado originalmente por Jarsonne:

I'd like a civil exchange to understand from what comes those JRPG cliché.

1. Forced male teen main character
Ok I get it's probably easier to sell games having a male main character than female, perhaps ignore this, even if it bores me.

But why teen and teen and teen again? I can't bear those JTPG male teen main characters. From what comes this?

Are Japanese teens and kids want be teens forever and don't want grow up adult? I vaguely remind it was a recurrent expectation to become adult finally, and often some adults saying enjoy this time. But at end, I/we was right, adult is much better than kid/teen and parents piloting you.

2. Bizarre combats looking basic
Why all need look the same weird face to face combats? It's clear there's at least tactic JRPG, that used combats on a grid, but still why so many JRPG need use again and again this similar combat system?

3. Forced kid companion
No matter how there's always companions clearly evoking kid, but who bring kids to wars? Very weird this weird thing needs be done again and again.

4. Others
In fact there's a myriad of JRPG cliché, but those three above seems those more impactful, so I'll skip make a long list.

1. You should play Trails through daybreak then. The main protagonist is not a teenager.

3. It's normal in anime and stuffs like that, western has its fantasies, jrpg and jp have their own fantasy series

4. Cliche and things like that are what makes jrpg.

Btw i totally get what you mean, but its just how it is. Its not about telling them to grow up. Its part of their gaming culture i guess.

[valentino.lizal]

Publicado originalmente por Overeagerdragon:

Publicado originalmente por Jarsonne:

SinsOfHistory:
Thanks a lot of the efforts.

1: But when I was kid and teen I wanted be an adult asap, and no way I wanted read more books where kids are main characters, ok eventually bellow ten perhaps, but teen including young teen (12) never ever.

Why do you feel normal that teens what stories about teens? Kids and teens build them up on examples of adults not of example of kids or teens, common. But perhaps it's different for Japanese culture.

JRPG with adult main character, can you provide a selection?

2: Perhaps I over estimate the potential around TB combats, but for example, how the hell it's a non JRPG that had to invent the combat system of Darkest Dungeon?

I mean it's not they are TB combats which I fully understand when managing a party, but why it's 99% similar face to face to combats?

3: No it's a lot more spread than just this series.

Kids in medieval wars? Seriously? Teens looked at as adults and put in wars ok, young kids, I doubt it.

1. examples for adults protags: Shadow Hearts 1 & 2, Octopath Traveller, Nier GESTALT(note: NOT Replicant), Yakuza:Like a dragon, Nier:Automata, Parasite Eve, FF6, Legaia, Othercide (though it's debatable)

2: They didn't; in a sense it's the very same system except on a completely horizontal plane. Games like Agarest:Generations of war or the various trails series do it TB on a limited grid. Grandia has the ILLUSION of a battlefield but the combat is still pretty much a horizontal plane (the movement and counter system combined with ATB giving it the ILLUSION of depth but you have no actual free movement system). Library of Ruina pretty much does the same thing if you look at the systems involved. I would have to dig through my library on steam (and my bookcases of cartridges) to find you more examples.

Gotta note though that DD isn't an actual RPG; it's a roguelike with RPG elements but what roguelike doesn't have those these days? Deadcells allow you to build up stats, improve weapons etc etc; but isn't an RPG. Goblin Stone plays VERY MUCH like DD but isn't an RPG either.... and if you think it does... is Binding of Isaac an RPG then too? How about Roboquest? Crab Champions?

3: Teens is the widest audience they can appeal to... Teens like to relate (as do we; proven by your question in and of itself). Not to mention that teens have the most potential for character growth as they still need to "grow up"... Besides, and don't get me wrong here, sex sells.... would you rather have Isha be your main protagonist...or Lam ? Would you rather have Yuri and Karin (Shadowhearts 2) or Roger Bacon?
I think I can be honest enough to say I'd rather look at someone young spry and mutable (in mind.... geez you pervs xD) if I'm going to play something for 100+ hours than the wrinkled behind of some gruff old veteran who's already set in his ways without anything surprising him anymore

Like a dragon series are cool man, thanks for reminding

[Jarsonne]

Publicado originalmente por WeissRook:

The idea is that the audience gets to experience the adventure and wonder as the game goes on. Alternatively, you could go all grim dark, but that's a pretty niche audience to target.

Examples of huge sells as Elden Ring, CP7, Baldur's Gate 3, Spiderman, certainly a few more, show there's no need target games to kids to sell a lot. Even if ok there's a few games that used this male teen or even kid cliché and sold a ton too.

At some point video games need mature and accept there's movies for kids and movies for adults and it's to parents to decide for their teens, video games can't be parked eternally in kids kindergarten.

[Jarsonne]

Publicado originalmente por valentino.lizal:

Publicado originalmente por Jarsonne:

I'd like a civil exchange to understand from what comes those JRPG cliché.

1. Forced male teen main character
Ok I get it's probably easier to sell games having a male main character than female, perhaps ignore this, even if it bores me.

But why teen and teen and teen again? I can't bear those JTPG male teen main characters. From what comes this?

Are Japanese teens and kids want be teens forever and don't want grow up adult? I vaguely remind it was a recurrent expectation to become adult finally, and often some adults saying enjoy this time. But at end, I/we was right, adult is much better than kid/teen and parents piloting you.

2. Bizarre combats looking basic
Why all need look the same weird face to face combats? It's clear there's at least tactic JRPG, that used combats on a grid, but still why so many JRPG need use again and again this similar combat system?

3. Forced kid companion
No matter how there's always companions clearly evoking kid, but who bring kids to wars? Very weird this weird thing needs be done again and again.

4. Others
In fact there's a myriad of JRPG cliché, but those three above seems those more impactful, so I'll skip make a long list.

1. You should play Trails through daybreak then. The main protagonist is not a teenager.

3. It's normal in anime and stuffs like that, western has its fantasies, jrpg and jp have their own fantasy series

4. Cliche and things like that are what makes jrpg.

Btw i totally get what you mean, but its just how it is. Its not about telling them to grow up. Its part of their gaming culture i guess.

1: Yeah played the first trails, and it was a fresh air to skip the eternal boredom Japanese male teen, and have combats a bit different. But there's still those requested kids companions, and the main character is borderline not adult.

[Jarsonne]

Publicado originalmente por Overeagerdragon:

3: Teens is the widest audience they can appeal to...

And since when teens don't want read adult stories and don't want want be adult asap?

[Overeagerdragon]

Publicado originalmente por Jarsonne:

Publicado originalmente por WeissRook:

The idea is that the audience gets to experience the adventure and wonder as the game goes on. Alternatively, you could go all grim dark, but that's a pretty niche audience to target.

Examples of huge sells as Elden Ring, CP7, Baldur's Gate 3, Spiderman, certainly a few more, show there's no need target games to kids to sell a lot. Even ok there's a few games that used this male teen or even kid cliché and sold a ton too.

At some point video games need mature and accept there's movies for kids and movies for adults and it's to parents to decide for their teens, video games can't be parked eternally in kids kindergarten.

NONE of the ones you mentioned being JRPG's..... and 3 out of your list of 4 allow you to make your own character to serve as a self-insert. Most JRPG's focus on you experiencing the story ALONGSTSIDE the main protagonist... not BEING the main protagonist

Btw: There are plenty of JRPG's out there which have either a more mature setting and/or more mature protag (I gave you some examples). As for more mature stories... play something like Vagrant Stories (should be a classic every lover of JRPG's should've played at least once), Shadow Hearts (In respects to its character growth as the story gets a bit silly at times) or even Nier:Replicant/Gestalt... some of those were smash hits too. In a sense Persona 5 Royal is a VERY mature story of a highschooler having to go through stuff even adults don't like to think about... Maybe play Persona 3 too whilst you're at it as that story gets REALLY dark at times

Calling JRPG's immature is like comparing Dragonball Z to Ghost in the Shell or Full Metal Alchemist...sure they're anime; but there's serious differences between the tone and story telling. JRPG's have the same nuance; there's those who go full tropy like Disgaea or fullon philosophical like Xenogears or Lost Odyssey

[Zio]

Publicado originalmente por Jarsonne:

1. Forced male teen main character


2. Bizarre combats looking basic

3. Forced kid companion

4.

Well you already explained your first half of 1. :P
As for the age thing, I think it's more that they also want to strike a bridge between kids/teens and adults. For example, not just JRPGs, Harvest Moon, the original for the SNES I used to think I play a kid/teen, now I know they're actually all adult o.O There are plenty of these games and themes, or probably rather, tropes. Possibly something along the lines of a coming of age story, where you literally and figuratively mature with the character while you get to know them and accompany them on their journey.
I have something else in mind but I can't quite remember/put my finger on it...I think it was Another Eden but...well maybe I will remember by the end.
Another example, Final Fantasy VIII, as a kid I thought they are all young adults but they're actually much younger.

2. Probably also just being familiar with it. And it's one of the iconic features of the games, especially turn-based that many "mainstream" people don't like.

3. I think that's also another trope, just like the typical sidekick, or maybe another part to the "coming of age" thing that still holds the viewer back and as you said, remember etc that after all they did not grow up completely. (btw it's also kinda normal in the West, see Peter Pan and others :P) Another possible thing might be, that war is grave, but even younger folk try or even have to take part because if they don't, the evil side wins and will get them sooner or later. Though sometimes they do send them home at some point, or let them in another place where it is much safer, like Grandia 1, it made pretty sad to let anyone go, especially that character at that point.
What I personally don'T like abuot JRPGs and similar if the characters have trope characters archetypes (you know, like being super kawaii or whatever) luckily I don't think I have seen too many of those

As for your general question about choices, it's always hard to make a split between what everyone knows, and what they can change without making it too different from what people loved back in the day. So it's mostly "safer" to stay with things similar to what people already know. If they had more money to spend freely I'm sure they would try many different things. Btw, have you played Eiyuden Chronicles Rising? I don't know how people liked it but I have yet to play it myself, I am looking forward to it though

[Zio]

Publicado originalmente por Jarsonne:

Publicado originalmente por WeissRook:

The idea is that the audience gets to experience the adventure and wonder as the game goes on. Alternatively, you could go all grim dark, but that's a pretty niche audience to target.

Examples of huge sells as Elden Ring, CP7, Baldur's Gate 3, Spiderman, certainly a few more, show there's no need target games to kids to sell a lot. Even if ok there's a few games that used this male teen or even kid cliché and sold a ton too.

At some point video games need mature and accept there's movies for kids and movies for adults and it's to parents to decide for their teens, video games can't be parked eternally in kids kindergarten.

Oh, yeah, that xD western people are obsessed with their image in front of others, playing games with kid characters is uncool and worse, it's a lot of peer pressure. So they often ask for more things being even darker because that is the idea they have gotten that cool is supposed to be. You know, afraid of their own feelings, always be the tough guy, the hero, the guy who can do everything and needs nobody! And more silly stuff like that

[Jarsonne]

Publicado originalmente por Overeagerdragon:

Publicado originalmente por Jarsonne:

Examples of huge sells as Elden Ring, CP7, Baldur's Gate 3, Spiderman, certainly a few more, show there's no need target games to kids to sell a lot. Even ok there's a few games that used this male teen or even kid cliché and sold a ton too.

At some point video games need mature and accept there's movies for kids and movies for adults and it's to parents to decide for their teens, video games can't be parked eternally in kids kindergarten.

NONE of the ones you mentioned being JRPG's..... and 3 out of your list of 4 allow you to make your own character to serve as a self-insert. Most JRPG's focus on you experiencing the story ALONGSTSIDE the main protagonist... not BEING the main protagonist

And what? I had to pick those examples, only because I didn't knew CRPG with high sells, let say 25% as much, and with adult main character. Then some posts quoted there's a few, ok, still a wide majority sticking to male teen main character.

Why wide majority of JRPG need be parked to male teen main character? Play an adult makes more sense than play with a main protagonist adult?

[Jarsonne]

Publicado originalmente por Zio:

Publicado originalmente por Jarsonne:

Examples of huge sells as Elden Ring, CP7, Baldur's Gate 3, Spiderman, certainly a few more, show there's no need target games to kids to sell a lot. Even if ok there's a few games that used this male teen or even kid cliché and sold a ton too.

At some point video games need mature and accept there's movies for kids and movies for adults and it's to parents to decide for their teens, video games can't be parked eternally in kids kindergarten.

Oh, yeah, that xD western people are obsessed with their image in front of others, playing games with kid characters is uncool and worse, it's a lot of peer pressure.

Lol.

[matteste]

Never played a mainline Shin Megami Tensei game (or some of the spinoffs) I take it?

Or Shadow Hearts either.

[Overeagerdragon]

Have you played final Fantasy XIV? It's a blockbuster of a JRPG (that happens to be an MMO) in which you can create your own character but the trailers ALWAYS depict the (former) Hero of Light to be in his mid to late 20's AND has a very mature story to tell throughout its expansions too and in a sense you follow a part of his journey.

The notion of the wider majority of JRPG's having adolescent protagonists doesn't mean there's no JRPG's out there that offer exactly what you are looking for. If you want a more mature protag or story then go look for that... I made some suggestions already

Likewise I also put forward arguments as to why a lot of JRPG's choose an adolescent as a main protag.

I mean no offense, honestly, but this is becoming a discussion of opinion at this point and that's fine... I'm just saying JRPG's HAVE grown up ... they're just usually more niche because it's not what the majority of consumers is looking for when buying a game like that