The AI Cheats / Difficulty Problems

[Satori]

That or it's just playing some kind of hyper optimized path that steamrolls you the longer the game goes on.

This is no fun.

I like to take my time, colonize stuff, explore the map etc. in these types of games. This isn't Starcraft. The primary viable strategy shouldn't be "rush the enemy AI or you're dead" in a HoMM style of game. This type of game is deliberately sandboxy so you can explore and have fun.

I was playing on easy, on EASY, and messing around with the Decay faction, not like having a perfectly optimized build but certainly not one that was bad by any means. I conquered most of the areas in my territory, then finally broke through the bridge and started colonizing the next zone. The AI hit me with a hero 2 levels above mine and a similar force to mine. "Ah well", I think, and I beat that force. Now my army has been whittled down significantly, and this army took me the majority of the game to build. It would take a while to rebuild.

The AI shows up ONE TURN LATER with two more armies that had the same number of troops as the first army and beelines for my capital. Are you serious?

It's fine having difficulty like that on Hard, Very hard, or whatever. But ffs let me play around on Easy and make it, you know, possible to win by slow playing if you play on easy.

Sometimes you want to take your time and enjoy a game like this. And it's a very crappy feeling if you get 0 feedback and then just roll over dead with no notice in 3 turns. On EASY. Sorry that's ridiculous.

[Merlin]

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

Is there any more info in there, do you care to elaborate a lil bit? How long was the game? How many weeks did you sit around and build up?

If you had Infirmary + Hospital you would've negated about 60% of the loss, not counting any other faction mechanics, the AI prioritises these quite highly, since having a boomerang effect in place is key to wins in this game, or to come back from a harsh loss, so that you can atleast have a chance. (Unlike HoMM3 which didn't have any at all, if you lost your main army and he had plenty left, that was a /FF Moment there)

But in essence, the AI does not cheat, the difficulty slider changes how hard the defenders are to your resources and such things. (On easy you can beat almost all the resource defenders without building anything extra or waiting, without using spells)

If you want feedback Me or Kain would love to have you on a coaching session on discord, I can stream a game for you, or you stream me the game on discord and we go over the gameplay together, I've had someone already and he was very pleased with the results.

Let us help you out. :ErannorthRebornYorik::gearthumbsup:

The decay faction doesn't have hospitals, they have the soul beacon which doesn't really match up to have 60% of your troop-count replenish after a fight. And even if you loose a fight with a hospital in play, you just buy back your hero and get the 60% of your forces back as a bonus. Now your enemy has nothing, because he can't build back units as fast, and you can just rush back in, with little to no effort. The problem is in how the game is balanced. Unit spam is way too powerful, skills that passively give you units are way too overpowered, and necromancy, which is one of the only few ways a Decay army can get their forces back, are forced to spend mana on it to work, meaning you either help your forces in the fight with spells, or you save it and hope to god you can afford whatever offer the game gives you when it's finished.

Blessing/healing combo is way too god because not only are your guys getting healed, they're also getting more health, damage and speed for nothing extra. Mastery is way too good because it gives you passive access to Friar that also heals. Bodyguards are good because it's essentially free units. And the list just goes on and on. Some factions are simply too good for their own good. Some heroes simply can't hold up against other ones. The problem is in the gameplay, not how they are played. Decay is a very weak faction, with the only ace up their sleeve being Malediction, which only gives low tier units upon death.

I'm not saying the game is bad, far from it. But there are some factions that are clearly better than other, with Order being pretty high up that scale, due to swarm/bless tactics alone. I love this game, but it could use some more work to be honest. It's not simply a case of "git gud".

Hope you at least eventually find a playstyle that works for you man, I recommend trying Order just to get a general sense of how the game expects you to play.

[Kinja]

I doubt the factions will ever be well balanced considering there's so many of them and, judging by a quick look in the discord, there's more to come. I think the game might be more geared towards having a lot of diversity and toys to play around with and less towards finely tuned balance, especially since it doesn't have online multiplayer anyway. I think the best advice to give anyone is to play around with all the factions and see what works for you and what doesn't.

[RegalKain]

Originally posted by Merlin:

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

Is there any more info in there, do you care to elaborate a lil bit? How long was the game? How many weeks did you sit around and build up?

If you had Infirmary + Hospital you would've negated about 60% of the loss, not counting any other faction mechanics, the AI prioritises these quite highly, since having a boomerang effect in place is key to wins in this game, or to come back from a harsh loss, so that you can atleast have a chance. (Unlike HoMM3 which didn't have any at all, if you lost your main army and he had plenty left, that was a /FF Moment there)

But in essence, the AI does not cheat, the difficulty slider changes how hard the defenders are to your resources and such things. (On easy you can beat almost all the resource defenders without building anything extra or waiting, without using spells)

If you want feedback Me or Kain would love to have you on a coaching session on discord, I can stream a game for you, or you stream me the game on discord and we go over the gameplay together, I've had someone already and he was very pleased with the results.

Let us help you out. :ErannorthRebornYorik::gearthumbsup:

The decay faction doesn't have hospitals, they have the soul beacon which doesn't really match up to have 60% of your troop-count replenish after a fight. And even if you loose a fight with a hospital in play, you just buy back your hero and get the 60% of your forces back as a bonus. Now your enemy has nothing, because he can't build back units as fast, and you can just rush back in, with little to no effort. The problem is in how the game is balanced. Unit spam is way too powerful, skills that passively give you units are way too overpowered, and necromancy, which is one of the only few ways a Decay army can get their forces back, are forced to spend mana on it to work, meaning you either help your forces in the fight with spells, or you save it and hope to god you can afford whatever offer the game gives you when it's finished.

Blessing/healing combo is way too god because not only are your guys getting healed, they're also getting more health, damage and speed for nothing extra. Mastery is way too good because it gives you passive access to Friar that also heals. Bodyguards are good because it's essentially free units. And the list just goes on and on. Some factions are simply too good for their own good. Some heroes simply can't hold up against other ones. The problem is in the gameplay, not how they are played. Decay is a very weak faction, with the only ace up their sleeve being Malediction, which only gives low tier units upon death.

I'm not saying the game is bad, far from it. But there are some factions that are clearly better than other, with Order being pretty high up that scale, due to swarm/bless tactics alone. I love this game, but it could use some more work to be honest. It's not simply a case of "git gud".

Hope you at least eventually find a playstyle that works for you man, I recommend trying Order just to get a general sense of how the game expects you to play.

I'm the Kain in reference here, and I would love to give you some pointers as well, there's no shame in admitting you're unfamiliar with the game and need some help, you should see me in any shooter ever invented ever, I'm just absolutely terrible, but I'm always willing to accept help and learn from people who are way better. (To be fair, most of my friends have told me to "Just get new eyes you blind ♥♥♥♥" so I'm working on that.)

Decay is almost about damage mitigation, without knowing exactly which hero you started with, I can't entirely help you with a cement strategy, that said, the Soul Beacon should either be used to fill in DPS, or fill in Tank, try not to combo it. Upgrading to Bone Guards on Day 1, is a pretty good idea honestly, Boneguards are far tankier, and worthwhile, making sure to keep on top of anything that gives you units is also hugely important, so like Necromancy/Regenertion is great, because it provides "free" units more or less.

[Power Button]

Is there any guide for lament faction? I'm having a hard time on "Sea of Blood" map. It's not a problem on easy difficulty as you can play any way you like.

But on normal, looks like there's kind of pattern to win the game. Right now on after my 5th defeat, I try to amass my numbers, lots of weak units and a few elites, am I going in the right direction here?

[RegalKain]

Originally posted by Power Button:

Is there any guide for lament faction? I'm having a hard time on "Sea of Blood" map. It's not a problem on easy difficulty as you can play any way you like.

But on normal, looks like there's kind of pattern to win the game. Right now on after my 5th defeat, I try to amass my numbers, lots of weak units and a few elites, am I going in the right direction here?

Lament is either Elites with a Caster, or Swarms with a Melee hero, at least that is what I've seen working. The melee hero who starts with Offense, and has Mastery as a secondary skill, just mass upgraded Trogs (Trogserker) and focus everything on making melee units better.

[mrwwww]

Originally posted by Satori:

That or it's just playing some kind of hyper optimized path that steamrolls you the longer the game goes on.

This is no fun.

I like to take my time, colonize stuff, explore the map etc. in these types of games. This isn't Starcraft. The primary viable strategy shouldn't be "rush the enemy AI or you're dead" in a HoMM style of game. This type of game is deliberately sandboxy so you can explore and have fun.

I was playing on easy, on EASY, and messing around with the Decay faction, not like having a perfectly optimized build but certainly not one that was bad by any means. I conquered most of the areas in my territory, then finally broke through the bridge and started colonizing the next zone. The AI hit me with a hero 2 levels above mine and a similar force to mine. "Ah well", I think, and I beat that force. Now my army has been whittled down significantly, and this army took me the majority of the game to build. It would take a while to rebuild.

The AI shows up ONE TURN LATER with two more armies that had the same number of troops as the first army and beelines for my capital. Are you serious?

It's fine having difficulty like that on Hard, Very hard, or whatever. But ffs let me play around on Easy and make it, you know, possible to win by slow playing if you play on easy.

Sometimes you want to take your time and enjoy a game like this. And it's a very crappy feeling if you get 0 feedback and then just roll over dead with no notice in 3 turns. On EASY. Sorry that's ridiculous.

The game is just ♥♥♥♥. Refund it if you can, wait for a workshop patch if you cant.

[mrwwww]

Originally posted by Satori:

This is no fun.

You would think this would be a big red flag. Let's hope it gets fixed.

[MadJukes]

If you need to hyperoptimize your gameplay to steamroll the AI and otherwise you struggle most of the time on Easy or Normal then the game is poorly balanced. It's as easy as that. TW:Warhammer 1 and 2 showed how balanced difficulty is done right (with some minor adjustments with mods to make it perfect).

[Satori]

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

Originally posted by MadJukes:

If you need to hyperoptimize your gameplay to steamroll the AI and otherwise you struggle most of the time on Easy or Normal then the game is poorly balanced. It's as easy as that. TW:Warhammer 1 and 2 showed how balanced difficulty is done right (with some minor adjustments with mods to make it perfect).

You dont need to optimize anything, you just have to play regularly, these people just dont even know how the game works, that's why, there's no other reason.

Nah, that's actually not correct, it's a game design thing ZirzoR.

There's a concept in game design of giving feedback and advance notice before, say, an AI is going to roll over you and grind you to paste.

If, in the span of 1 turn, in your turn based game, an AI can wipe you out and roll towards your capital, there is no notice. You can't respond. That is bad design.

You could say "oh, but you just had to know the perfect combination of damage mitigation units" or "oh, you just had to spam a certain combination of healing units" but no... On easy, that should not be the case. Hard or very hard, sure, go crazy, have that requirement.

But on easy? No.

You can't say "oh you just have to get better at the game" when you set it on the easiest setting. The point of the easiest setting is for you to learn the game...

That is fundamental game design.

[markustay1963]

I had the same exact problems, and now regret my purchase. I wanted something that felt like HoMM, not Warcraft. Thought I was doing well, and then got hammered into the ground by an enemy that just had as many armies as they needed, one right after the other (and YES, I was lev. 18, had most of my buildings including Hospital/infirmary built, etc). I was using spells and strategizing... none of it mattered. The AI has never-ending armies and resources.

[Lfod]

Over exaggerating will only hurt the cause not help. You have to understand you are in a forum talking to a lot of people who play the game. I played one game on normal since I bought the game and no point did I experience what some of the people on this forum are talking about.

I think at this point in time I am going to start asking for game play video evidence proof because I did not have the same experience that people are claiming happened. If the most vocal people really feel that something is wrong with the game then its time to start posting videos because I don't think anybody should just take some ones word for it.

I want to see you play at a level deserving to win and still lost the run.

[Schploopus]

I read the first post only. I know the RTS style meta people are going to respond with get gud type comments or at least I think they will. Your post and others like it are the reasons I dont get this game. I too enjoy the more deliberate pacing of previous games in this style. I dont want to have to rush to the boss. There are plenty of games on the market that require the rush rush rush mentality. This shouldnt have been one of them.

I will keep checking back though. As I want to get this game if the pace of it is tuned for people that like to take their time.

[boho]

Originally posted by Satori:

There's a concept in game design of giving feedback and advance notice before, say, an AI is going to roll over you and grind you to paste.

If, in the span of 1 turn, in your turn based game, an AI can wipe you out and roll towards your capital, there is no notice. You can't respond. That is bad design.

This isn’t true of strategy games. Fog of War is a mechanic specifically designed to *not* let you know when you’re in trouble until it’s too late *unless* you use the resources to scout ahead.

HH actually does have methods for you to recover and respond defensively:

* every Mage’s Guild gives you Town Portal so you can get your combat hero on the defense if they’re out of position.
* the Infirmary and Hospital save a portion of the units you lose and put them in your town
* the Bodyguards skill means the Hero can’t permanently die as long as you have a city and gets a free army scaled to the size of your largest army. All Heroes hired after building a Champion Statue have 2 free ranks of it.

[Power Button]

Originally posted by Jarl B Ballin:

I read the first post only. I know the RTS style meta people are going to respond with get gud type comments or at least I think they will. Your post and others like it are the reasons I dont get this game. I too enjoy the more deliberate pacing of previous games in this style. I dont want to have to rush to the boss. There are plenty of games on the market that require the rush rush rush mentality. This shouldnt have been one of them.

I will keep checking back though. As I want to get this game if the pace of it is tuned for people that like to take their time.

if that is what you are looking for then this is not your type of game. Most of strategy games requires you to build an army quickly and rush your enemies before they rush you

[Schploopus]

Originally posted by Power Button:

Originally posted by Jarl B Ballin:

I read the first post only. I know the RTS style meta people are going to respond with get gud type comments or at least I think they will. Your post and others like it are the reasons I dont get this game. I too enjoy the more deliberate pacing of previous games in this style. I dont want to have to rush to the boss. There are plenty of games on the market that require the rush rush rush mentality. This shouldnt have been one of them.

I will keep checking back though. As I want to get this game if the pace of it is tuned for people that like to take their time.

if that is what you are looking for then this is not your type of game. Most of strategy games requires you to build an army quickly and rush your enemies before they rush you

Thats why I said there are plenty of games on the market that do just that. In HOMM3 you didnt need to. And this is what game that is based on. Hence why every other topic on the forum is about the difficulty.