Great game, but...

[Muszu]

Hey everyone!
First of all, a really great game. I hope the title will be developed as best as possible, but there are a few things that make me want to make Alt F4.
I spend most of my time on Riot's TFT - I have thousands of hours and hundreds of games there, so I think I have a basic knowledge of this type of games
I currently have 25h+ in T&T. The game looks really good and I will probably come back to it often. I dont want the post to be just complaining, because that would be a very unfair approach, so...

----------------------------------------------------

Positive things:
- The ability to choose heroes that are actually different from each other and how you play them
- A large number of interesting traits

- Story stages/Quests are a great idea. I love it

- Eye-pleasing graphics - My daughter (4y) loves looking at these running creatures :D

- The soundtrack is ok, nothing crazy

- That you have a reason to keep playing through the motivation to unlock more stories/quests/heroes/traits

- And there are probably a few other things that have escaped my mind

----------------------------------------------------

Frustrating/Negative things:

- Situations where I can't get through the first chapter or even the first two fights (I don't mean the fights with Goblins). I can have 2-3 units of T2 and lose to Mr. Unlucky who turns out not to be that Unlucky. Several times there was even a situation where my T3 unit was able to lose to him in a second

- Several traits seem to be unplayable if you want to focus on them from the beginning, such as Orcs, Bugs, Skeleton, Shroom and most disappointingly Fea. Why are Fea singled out? Because they have a great idea for the trait, but strangely they are practically unable to win in chapter 1-2. Therefore, in order to complete the challenges effectively, I have to repeat over and over again, e.g.: Elementals, Legends, Demons, Dwellers or Treefolks

- Of course I don't expect it, for example I'll say to myself ok, now I'm going through the XXX Challenge using mainly the Orks trait and I succeeded in it for the first time. I have already several approaches to these unfortunate Orcs or Fea at various levels of challenge difficulty. I just feel punished for trying to experiment on higher difficulties instead of blindly going with just those strong traits/champions

- Banish - how I hate this trait. It's more about the fact that I feel limited in a random way. It doesn't give me the slightest pleasure. Instead of random different units, I would prefer it to simply disable the entire trait from the game, e.g. there are no Treefolks units in this game

- Bounty - I'm just experimenting with how profitable this series of Stories/Quests is. Currently, I have played about 10-15 games related to this and I have the impression that as soon as I select a quest, e.g. collect the T2 mage, suddenly these units practically stop appearing. It's probably a matter of bad luck/RNG, but it looks weird :D

- The same as above in the last point, there are a few things that irritate me but they escaped my mind

----------------------------------------------------

Neutral Things:

- The Curse is, on the one hand, a cool theme that requires thought and risk-taking, but on the other hand, there are games in which those 5-10% appear as if they were 30%+ or literally block only my traits. It's not often, but it happens. I also had games where I had literally 10 curse stacks which, if I'm thinking correctly, gives about a 50% chance of blocking a unit in the store and I had practically no blocks, maybe 1-2 units per 3 store refreshes.

- Purge is one big trap, although it can't really be called a trap because it is clearly written that we only LOSE/RESTART progress in the Unlocks tab. I allowed myself a one-time restart out of curiosity to see if something would be unlocked, e.g. an achievement on Steam, but no. So I don't see any point in having this button at the moment. Just to be clear, I've already hit it twice from zero to the end

----------------------------------------------------

In general, the post is not intended to be negative, I just wanted to share my thoughts with the community and the developer. I think the game has incredible potential and I really enjoy my time playing it. Congratulations on the game and I will be closely monitoring the progress of further patches and if time permits (adulthood su*ks) I will be happy to share such thoughts from time to time :)

[Ant Lilypad]

I don't think your 2nd and 3rd negative points are truly negative. I think, in any game, there's going to be comps that are good for early game and comps that are good for late game. I've had runs where, if I wanted a specific comp that only really works in the late game, I'll choose a different comp for the early game and then slowly transition into the late game comp. I think that adds even more fun and tactical thinking, since you're not just thinking about what comp you'll do, but you're thinking about when and how you're gonna transition, what comp you'll use in the beginning vs the end, etc. To me, that's a positive!

[Ant Lilypad]

btw I have 100+ hours in the game, and I think it took me about 50 hours to really notice that stuff I'm saying because when I started playing I also thought like you, that there's only certain viable comps and that other comps are unplayable. It definitely took some playing around and experimenting for me to figure out what I'm telling you

[Michael Mayhem]

Thanks for the writeup! We're reworking Bounty Tales soon, we haven't been fully satisfied with them either. This is the 2nd time we've heard of the Purge button maybe not being as clear as it could be, that it's purely for deleting your save file with no benefit, so we'll update the wording to try to be more clear.

We've also been hearing issues regarding early game balance but have been having difficulty identifying specifics. Our metrics aren't actually showing any real increase in early losses, but the feedback is always genuine, which likely means the losses are having more emotional impact than they did before. This probably means a couple outlier problematic units or traits that are exceptionally overperforming that early, or a fault in the starting resource availability such that there's a noticeable spike when you hit vs when you don't. To combat this, we're changing the "No Specialization" choice's 3rd option to instead be about immediate power, since almost all of the specializations are about direction or other late-game activity, and there's few or none that offer an early game advantage.

Thanks again, I hope you'll give it another shot after a future update. If so I look forward to the next report.

[Muszu]

Originally posted by Ant Lilypad:

btw I have 100+ hours in the game, and I think it took me about 50 hours to really notice that stuff I'm saying because when I started playing I also thought like you, that there's only certain viable comps and that other comps are unplayable. It definitely took some playing around and experimenting for me to figure out what I'm telling you

Thanks for the advice, I'm still experimenting. Although I still think there is no hope for Orks specifically, haha ​​:D

--------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Michael Mayhem:

Thanks for the writeup! We're reworking Bounty Tales soon, we haven't been fully satisfied with them either. This is the 2nd time we've heard of the Purge button maybe not being as clear as it could be, that it's purely for deleting your save file with no benefit, so we'll update the wording to try to be more clear.

We've also been hearing issues regarding early game balance but have been having difficulty identifying specifics. Our metrics aren't actually showing any real increase in early losses, but the feedback is always genuine, which likely means the losses are having more emotional impact than they did before. This probably means a couple outlier problematic units or traits that are exceptionally overperforming that early, or a fault in the starting resource availability such that there's a noticeable spike when you hit vs when you don't. To combat this, we're changing the "No Specialization" choice's 3rd option to instead be about immediate power, since almost all of the specializations are about direction or other late-game activity, and there's few or none that offer an early game advantage.

Thanks again, I hope you'll give it another shot after a future update. If so I look forward to the next report.

No no no, I'm not going to stop playing :D I have to complete all the challenges and achievements :D I'm currently on CH 12 of 15

[Ant Lilypad]

Originally posted by Cygaro:

Originally posted by Ant Lilypad:

Thanks for the advice, I'm still experimenting. Although I still think there is no hope for Orks specifically, haha ​​:D

--------------------------------------------

Orcs is one of my favorite team comps! I like to play on the character Thet, which gives your units I think 20% less damage taken, and 20% more damage done. and I also like to save up gold to reroll the store until i can get an orc war banner and give it to some other characters i like. I forget which ones I like to do it with because it's been a while since I've done that but I think orcs are great

[Muszu]

I love playing Shroom x4 + Shaman x2 or Healer x4 + sth tanky/legend. And I also play mainly as the hero you are talking about :D

[Jolly]

I got burned by the Purge immediately after tutorial. I thought it was going to be a reset and instead flushed my first reward. Better then than later though. Reading IS neato and I've played a bazillion games and been a (non game) dev for 40 years so I usually don't screw this kind of thing up. But i did.

(otherwise, I'm barely getting going, impressed, and loving everything so far)

[Muszu]

Originally posted by Jolly:

I got burned by the Purge immediately after tutorial. I thought it was going to be a reset and instead flushed my first reward. Better then than later though. Reading IS neato and I've played a bazillion games and been a (non game) dev for 40 years so I usually don't screw this kind of thing up. But i did.

(otherwise, I'm barely getting going, impressed, and loving everything so far)

I call it - Brain Lagg :D

[Michael Mayhem]

FYI - a patch note preview for next update:

Into the Void (Difficulty modifier) now banishes all Units of a Trait rather than random units. This will be a bit easier to digest and remember throughout the run. A banished Trait will also prevent their War Banners from appearing in shops and any Trait-specific level up perks from choosing perks that affect that Trait.

Good suggestion!

[Muszu]

Originally posted by Michael Mayhem:

FYI - a patch note preview for next update:

Into the Void (Difficulty modifier) now banishes all Units of a Trait rather than random units. This will be a bit easier to digest and remember throughout the run. A banished Trait will also prevent their War Banners from appearing in shops and any Trait-specific level up perks from choosing perks that affect that Trait.

Good suggestion!

Wow :D Nice and and thanks for considering the idea :D

[Jolly]

The more I play the more I find this game frustrating because kind like OP says, even if you pick good units and synergies you often get vaporized early and there doesn't seem to be any way to avoid it other than hope for better luck next time.

[Zubon]

Adding another voice with OP and others: early balance is not good. If you can have multiple active traits and lose to Unlucky Lass, what is going on?

Feedback from players who are on the Discord or have >100 hours of playtime will not be especially useful for identifying early game issues or the new player experience. If the game works after you have invested 100 hours ... most players will never invest 100 hours, whereas *everyone* has the new player experience.

Which raises a question about the metrics: *who* is in them? If the average hours logged per player is increasing, you might be seeing better early game performance from long-term players who already know the early game in and out, read and discuss the latest balance changes, etc. How are the early game metrics if you restrict it to players with <10 hours logged? with <10 hours after unlocking everything? the first time at a challenge level?

If your primary data source is experienced players, players already invested enough to be on Discord, etc. you are preaching to the choir. That is great for a long-standing community, not great for getting new players and new sales (that do not lead to returns and refunds).

[Michael Mayhem]

The patch that is being released right shortly increases the "No Specialization" choice rewards to be more about a significant boost to early game power. While that may not be the end-all solution it should be an option for those struggling with the early game.

Regarding that, I'm interested to know if this is a high challenge level issue or not. The Lass in particular is designed to be always less of an army than the player can make at normal Difficulty, but that stops being true at higher difficulties.

[Jolly]

Love this game, finished all the upgrades ages ago, and trying the challenge bit now for giggles. I'm only on challenge 3 and I'm starting to wonder if using a "draft character" induces extra difficulty or WTF happened.

The combo of the first 3 challenge anti-buffs isn't all that much yet I'm getting completely destroyed on every run, usually early, with no hope because I'm ridiculously outclassed facing green and blue up to tier IV's with my tier I and II's and I'm not seeing how I'd be competitive even with perfectly ideal shop draws.

I didn't really have any problem at all with challenge 1 or 2 so it feels whack. Challenge only adds more curse, which is actually something that can be manipulated favorable easily enough, so it's extra confounding.

I often run the same boring combos of characters (multiple healers, as many stunner/status inducers as possible, efficient damage deals that don't have situation specials that do little most of the time) or close to it since way too many characters and combo have almost no hope of succeeding.

I'm facing teams with 1 to 2 healers (of higher tier) and 5 matching traits like treefolk, which is completely insane, with a mix of up to blue units up to tier IV, before the first boss when I'm struggling to get my 3rd tier 2 going spending all resources and I MIGHT have 2 or 3 traits unlocked if I've been lucky and got the exact comp I want.

While I'm on the topic of odds and difficulty - usually in runs I find the final tournament to be a pushover compared to at least half the fights in the build up. I can't remember ever losing a run once reaching the final tournament because getting there is far more challenging. The 2 lead up fights in the final tournament are never a challenge and are way under tuned compared to several prior encounters every time. And even though the story is the same every time and the final tournament dude is buffed, it's still a pushover. At least that's how it was before I started not being able to get out of round 1.

Admittedly I don't focus demons or skeles ever since mechanics that hinge on party wipes are not how I like to build a strategy but maybe I should try this since full party wipes are all I'm getting lately.

Game is getting back at me I guess, I was on a roll of pummeling it mercilessly while rarely having any combat deaths at all and laughing at all challenges and intentionally pick the most difficult encounters. Now I'm getting wiped without taking out a single enemy. I feel like an abused AI player.

RNG is RNG - it happens - but it's also been more common lately for me to go an entire draft without seeing 1 of my 4 characters early on, even with the extra roll perk. Happened twice in a row in a recent match and you can't get set back that much - abandon. Big diff between favorable luck and investing and having to spend every star just to form a team and to ever see an upgrade. Having this happen two runs in a row lead to a soft rage quit (shut down the game, more disappointed than raging).

One's best runs shouldn't be so much about luck - doesn't feel good - but even with the best choices possible it often comes down to the luck of did you even get the chance to make the choices. Kinda the rogue nature I guess but it seems like there's potential for a finer balance.

If I'm being 100% honest as a filthy casual that plays tons of these games, I'll abandon and restart runs repeatedly until I get some kind of start that has hope because way too often I can't even get 4 characters that are remotely synergistic together in the initial draft and there is zero point in attempting to go it with a bunch of randoms, or 4 tanks because somehow the RNG gets fixated - that kind of stuff is only fun for hardcore masochists - I'm a professional with a life and playing thru frustrating sure losses isn't my idea of entertainment. And if after a few fights the RNG has been atrocious and I'm burning all stars for few upgrades - abandon - win probably is too low to waste the time. Early upgrades are critical.

Another RNG thing is gear - maybe it's character traits - maybe it's RNG - but some runs my entire party ends up with every slot filled and in some runs I'm lucky if I get even half filled and it makes a HUGE difference in effectiveness.

I also feel like you need to race to build up your early units because once the store is diluted with green and blue units, which are risky to use because they're inferior to promoted commons and way harder to promote because once the store is diluted it's harder to upgrade period. You really want to be tier IV in commons around the time blues unlock or you're boned.

It would be amazing to develop a team with multiple tier IV greens and/or blues but it would be miraculous to ever make it happen. I usually hope to get ONE green to IV and rarely even take blues. If you want high tiered units you need to work towards it the whole run and even if you do, there's very little chance you'll get much out of green or blue tiers. IMO.

Doing the runs with 7 max team size and only commons makes one feel like maybe there should be more commons and a bit fewer each of green and blue since those characters can only be getting used much by the AI players.

Early on in my gameplay when I had absolutely no clue I was trying to cycle out of common and into green then blue units and let me assure you that this approach is sure fail every time. Low tier green and blue units are as butt worthless as low tier commons in the end.

A lot of the character traits give you random stuff that ends up useless and it never feels good, even if you live with it. Having one of your 4 character picks end up a complete dud some of the time because of RNG kinda sucks. Like when you get a valuable banner that never matches one of your 6 characters and you're not going to build around some random banner - waste of a character trait. I guess it's a gamble.

I'll try some different comps but like I said, my build prefs were dominating then all of a sudden - getting vaporized even restarting as many times as it takes to get some kind of desirable starting team. Bad run of RNG and tired or something, I guess.

To summarize way too many works. Too much RNG. If things go your way, if you get good store draws, can build a decent group, can upgrade them, get a decent flow of gear, then you have the potential to make good decisions and be competitive and have a chance. If you don't get good RNG, you have very little chance and will get overwhelmed and crushed and no amount of player skill or determination is going to change that outcome.

At least there's no penalty for repeatedly abandoning runs. There's that!

[Michael Mayhem]

Originally posted by Jolly:

I'm facing teams with 1 to 2 healers (of higher tier) and 5 matching traits like treefolk, which is completely insane, with a mix of up to blue units up to tier IV, before the first boss when I'm struggling to get my 3rd tier 2 going spending all resources and I MIGHT have 2 or 3 traits unlocked if I've been lucky and got the exact comp I want.

This is wildly beyond the limits we have in place and I've never seen this myself. If you run into anything remotely close to this, can you send an F1 bug report? Enemy units only unlock rarity when you do, and are highly restricted in when they can achieve certain tiers of rarity. Tier 4 blues are only possible in the final fight of the game, by how the rules are set up. If you had seen something like this, something went terribly, horribly wrong.