Is the +2 Assembly Table bonus to Page Modules worth it?

[thetfords07]

At present, it feels that the best design for the printing press is just to put everything on the top floor in a line, as that is the most space efficient design, it avoids everyone else getting negative buffs when using the stairwell behind it, and the the only people who need to go to the press are mechanics and supply workers. It essentially removes all puzzle and challenge from it. It's almost a non thought.

The only exception to this is if you want to take advantage of the +2 bonus the page modules give to adjacent assembly tables. In my current playthrough I've decided to try and build the printing press around my assembly tables but the entire thing is that cumbersome that I question if I should even bother in the future.

The belts conflict with issue boards and slug racks and even the assembly tables themselves. In addition, given how much space each belt corner takes, what takes up one floor in the simple route outlined above has taken me 2 and a half floors in my current run with four assembly tables and four pages. Given how in most cases have had next to little extra space to swap things around, so you have to plan around it early game, and currently I'm not able to place legal and sales desks due to the lack of space. Not to mention all the extra fans required to counter the heat means that I need a generator much earlier in the run than before.

And all this just for +2.

If I try this again, I do question if I need four assembly tables, and could probably get away with less, and from what I've read about what is coming in the upcoming patches (fixes to elevators, trash generation, large bin placement and sound panel resizing, object stashing) will get rid of some of the issues I've had with trying to set up this combo, but I do question if +2 is worth it.

I'm curious if and how other people have set up their printing presses around assembly tables, and what their thoughts on it are?

[Beloega]

Originally posted by thetfords07:

At present, it feels that the best design for the printing press is just to put everything on the top floor in a line, as that is the most space efficient design, it avoids everyone else getting negative buffs when using the stairwell behind it, and the the only people who need to go to the press are mechanics and supply workers. It essentially removes all puzzle and challenge from it. It's almost a non thought.

The only exception to this is if you want to take advantage of the +2 bonus the page modules give to adjacent assembly tables. In my current playthrough I've decided to try and build the printing press around my assembly tables but the entire thing is that cumbersome that I question if I should even bother in the future.

The belts conflict with issue boards and slug racks and even the assembly tables themselves. In addition, given how much space each belt corner takes, what takes up one floor in the simple route outlined above has taken me 2 and a half floors in my current run with four assembly tables and four pages. Given how in most cases have had next to little extra space to swap things around, so you have to plan around it early game, and currently I'm not able to place legal and sales desks due to the lack of space. Not to mention all the extra fans required to counter the heat means that I need a generator much earlier in the run than before.

And all this just for +2.

If I try this again, I do question if I need four assembly tables, and could probably get away with less, and from what I've read about what is coming in the upcoming patches (fixes to elevators, trash generation, large bin placement and sound panel resizing, object stashing) will get rid of some of the issues I've had with trying to set up this combo, but I do question if +2 is worth it.

I'm curious if and how other people have set up their printing presses around assembly tables, and what their thoughts on it are?

Just watching this thread in the background

[WordCobbler]

I didn't know that there was a bonus! The save I was trying one printing press piece per floor on bugged on me and I didn't bother on the newer one. I'll make a point of trying out the one per floor again.

I did read in another thread that there are some minor changes coming to the acoustic panels in the upcoming patch this week. Just debating if I spend the time before or wait...

[ChaoticRecursion]

Right now, IMO, there's no reason to try and take advantage of it unless you do some goofy snaking stuff and only put 1 part of the printer per room, otherwise its totally impossible to counter the heat & noise the printer modules make. I prefer putting the whole printer on a floor and just ignoring the heat & noise lol.

Edit: If the +2 feels like it matters that much (total of 4 skill points on 2 tables), just build another table and save yourself (and your assemblers) the headache

[magicknuts]

My second run I am trying it, I like it, early game is very useful, I am at Feb 32 and with 2 assembler and 3 typesetters, with all the buffs and max skill, it works a charm. have the typesetters on floor between the two assemblers and two fully buffed runners on typesetting floor, although hoping to get too more runners to help as although I save deliveries to the beginning or end of the week (when all or most news items are finished) I do have to help them with box movement then - mainly paper. Not had problems not finishing before the final bell. It isn't too difficult to make the one module per floor for the assembler floors (I didn't have a module on the floor with typesetters, just the conveyor passing through.)

With the new update, I imagine it will be easier to deal with noise and temp to begin with before you get the acoustic wallpaper and large fans.

Thing to note, the buff from printers only works if the assembler is on the right of the printer but it can be placed 3 or four away from printer to still get buff, this allows for bin or trolley placement between. So I had the printer going up the left of the building, and my lifts and toilets up the right (2 lifts and 1 toilet per floor) and a set of stairs that goes between the 3 production floors and 1 other floor where other blue collar desks and printer input and other modules are making it easier for the runners.

Edited - as it seems the 2+ buff for printer does work with assembler on the left of printer as well as right, makes arrangement much easier!

[thetfords07]

Originally posted by magicknuts:

My second run I am trying it, I like it, early game is very useful, I am at Feb 32 and with 2 assembler and 3 typesetters, with all the buffs and max skill, it works a charm. have the typesetters on floor between the two assemblers and two fully buffed runners on typesetting floor, although hoping to get too more runners to help as although I save deliveries to the beginning or end of the week (when all or most news items are finished) I do have to help them with box movement then - mainly paper. Not had problems not finishing before the final bell. It isn't too difficult to make the one module per floor for the assembler floors (I didn't have a module on the floor with typesetters, just the conveyor passing through.)

With the new update, I imagine it will be easier to deal with noise and temp to begin with before you get the acoustic wallpaper and large fans.

Thing to note, the buff from printers only works if the assembler is on the right of the printer but it can be placed 3 or four away from printer to still get buff, this allows for bin or trolley placement between. So I had the printer going up the left of the building, and my lifts and toilets up the right (2 lifts and 1 toilet per floor) and a set of stairs that goes between the 3 production floors and 1 other floor where other blue collar desks and printer input and other modules are making it easier for the runners.

Edited - as it seems the 2+ buff for printer does work with assembler on the left of printer as well as right, makes arrangement much easier!

While you can have a gap of up to 2 tiles on the left and three on the right, the issue becomes that in order to connect the module to the rest of the press, you have to extend the belt over the table on one side as the corner belt piece is larger than the belt itself and can't fit over the table, this puts it into conflict with the issue board (you can fit a slug rack under a belt, but not a belt corner). This caps you out at a +3 instead of a +4, and takes up a lot of horizontal space.

In addition, it seems to be that each level in assembly reduces the assembly by an hour.

[magicknuts]

Originally posted by thetfords07:

While you can have a gap of up to 2 tiles on the left and three on the right, the issue becomes that in order to connect the module to the rest of the press, you have to extend the belt over the table on one side as the corner belt piece is larger than the belt itself and can't fit over the table, this puts it into conflict with the issue board (you can fit a slug rack under a belt, but not a belt corner). This caps you out at a +3 instead of a +4, and takes up a lot of horizontal space.

In addition, it seems to be that each level in assembly reduces the assembly by an hour.

Not at all, you have the belt come up from below on one side of the printer (or across from input module) then have the belt go directly up. The very beginning of the game you don't have access to the board buff or the trolley so it doesn't matter if the belt goes over the top and by the time you can access it you should have enough floors to have the belt go directly up (or very near to being able to do this) You really can have the full +4 buff for assembler.

Since the new update (which reduced how far behind a vertical belt you can place things) I managed to rearrange to have the print chain in a pyramid and to have the printer modules surround the two assemblers which have the trolley and board between (and trash cans each between the printer and the assembler). with space for a stair to typesetting, the output module, a sweeper and some food (there is a toilet directly at the bottom of the stairs). so +4 and green comfort all around, with no belt over the assembly tables.

[WordCobbler]

I'd love to see some screenshots.

I must be doing something wrong because I can't get the belt to go directly from one piece right into another when they're above each other.

[jmucchiello]

I've been trying to get that to work well since the beta (which predates the demo). No. It isn't. Not because of all the noise and heat. But because of the pathing hit you take by needing to carry the load from the typesetters to the assemblers. Your path between these two tables should as short as possible, if not shorter. Putting the assemblers next to a printer module is almost always going to extend this path too much. If you could command your typesetters and assemblers to never leave their the desks to find/deliver work, and had some really good resupplier. Maybe it could work. And even then, the path is longer than it should be.

[thetfords07]

Originally posted by magicknuts:

Originally posted by thetfords07:

While you can have a gap of up to 2 tiles on the left and three on the right, the issue becomes that in order to connect the module to the rest of the press, you have to extend the belt over the table on one side as the corner belt piece is larger than the belt itself and can't fit over the table, this puts it into conflict with the issue board (you can fit a slug rack under a belt, but not a belt corner). This caps you out at a +3 instead of a +4, and takes up a lot of horizontal space.

In addition, it seems to be that each level in assembly reduces the assembly by an hour.

Not at all, you have the belt come up from below on one side of the printer (or across from input module) then have the belt go directly up. The very beginning of the game you don't have access to the board buff or the trolley so it doesn't matter if the belt goes over the top and by the time you can access it you should have enough floors to have the belt go directly up (or very near to being able to do this) You really can have the full +4 buff for assembler.

Since the new update (which reduced how far behind a vertical belt you can place things) I managed to rearrange to have the print chain in a pyramid and to have the printer modules surround the two assemblers which have the trolley and board between (and trash cans each between the printer and the assembler). with space for a stair to typesetting, the output module, a sweeper and some food (there is a toilet directly at the bottom of the stairs). so +4 and green comfort all around, with no belt over the assembly tables.

Can you post a screenshot of what you mean? I'm genuinely curious if there is actually a way for a single module to service two fully buffed tables, as I far as I know, a module has three inputs (left, right and up), and in order for it to be functional, it needs to use two inputs.

For example, here I have the return immediately next to the module on the right, however the corner is that big that the assembly table can't get close enough to get the effect of the module.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3165297025

Here, is the only way I have found to get two tables with an adjacency bonus by going over the table, however this blocks out future placement of the issue board, as the table only recognises buff items placed above it, but the belt is in the way.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3165296928

I'm not sure what other direction is possible, but I could easily be wrong.

In terms of if it is worth it, it seems to have diminishing returns the more skilled the assembly worker is. A completely unskilled, unbuffed worker takes 12 hours to complete their work, while putting a module next to them reduces it to 8 (reducing it by 2 hours each level). Whereas a highly skilled,highly buffed worker, each level only reduces it by half an hour.

One could question if that extra hour is worth it if your typesetters have to walk all the way to the assembly table (how long is an hour in this game?) - especially with the current state of elevators. You could argue that this is good early game, but early game you don't have enough articles and pages to need that speed boost.

I'd really like to see stuff that encourages out of the box thinking and unconventional setups more than just the straight printer in a row.

This is my current printing press setup, both assembly workers are level 5 and it takes them 3-4 hours to assemble.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3165321334

[magicknuts]

Originally posted by thetfords07:

Originally posted by magicknuts:

Not at all, you have the belt come up from below on one side of the printer (or across from input module) then have the belt go directly up. The very beginning of the game you don't have access to the board buff or the trolley so it doesn't matter if the belt goes over the top and by the time you can access it you should have enough floors to have the belt go directly up (or very near to being able to do this) You really can have the full +4 buff for assembler.

Since the new update (which reduced how far behind a vertical belt you can place things) I managed to rearrange to have the print chain in a pyramid and to have the printer modules surround the two assemblers which have the trolley and board between (and trash cans each between the printer and the assembler). with space for a stair to typesetting, the output module, a sweeper and some food (there is a toilet directly at the bottom of the stairs). so +4 and green comfort all around, with no belt over the assembly tables.

Can you post a screenshot of what you mean? I'm genuinely curious if there is actually a way for a single module to service two fully buffed tables, as I far as I know, a module has three inputs (left, right and up), and in order for it to be functional, it needs to use two inputs.

For example, here I have the return immediately next to the module on the right, however the corner is that big that the assembly table can't get close enough to get the effect of the module.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3165297025

Here, is the only way I have found to get two tables with an adjacency bonus by going over the table, however this blocks out future placement of the issue board, as the table only recognises buff items placed above it, but the belt is in the way.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3165296928

I'm not sure what other direction is possible, but I could easily be wrong.

In terms of if it is worth it, it seems to have diminishing returns the more skilled the assembly worker is. A completely unskilled, unbuffed worker takes 12 hours to complete their work, while putting a module next to them reduces it to 8 (reducing it by 2 hours each level). Whereas a highly skilled,highly buffed worker, each level only reduces it by half an hour.

One could question if that extra hour is worth it if your typesetters have to walk all the way to the assembly table (how long is an hour in this game?) - especially with the current state of elevators. You could argue that this is good early game, but early game you don't have enough articles and pages to need that speed boost.

I'd really like to see stuff that encourages out of the box thinking and unconventional setups more than just the straight printer in a row.

This is my current printing press setup, both assembly workers are level 5 and it takes them 3-4 hours to assemble.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3165321334

I didn't say a single module for the 2 tables, I said two modules with the tables between (the belt from modules went straight up) I haven't played that set up with the two between though, I just said it is possible when between the 2 modules to have 2 fully buffed assemblers.

If you are on discord, my old save where I had a 3 floor production, so printer module&assembler, next floor my typesetters, next floor printer module and assembler.

I don't disagree about diminishing returns in later game, but I do find the buff nice especially to begin with and with unskilled/low skilled workers. It also means you can take longer before hiring a second assembler if money or space is an issue at the time. I should also say that I bought 2 floors from the beginning of the game, although it is possible to still get the +2 if you buy the single floor especially now you can place noise reduction thingies above the belt. For each room with 1 printer part 3 noise reduction squares (sorry the name eludes me) should suffice, along with brick walls and mix of temp objects, plants (which can now be placed on printer parts - brilliant!) and a clock.

[thetfords07]

Originally posted by magicknuts:

Originally posted by thetfords07:

Can you post a screenshot of what you mean? I'm genuinely curious if there is actually a way for a single module to service two fully buffed tables, as I far as I know, a module has three inputs (left, right and up), and in order for it to be functional, it needs to use two inputs.

For example, here I have the return immediately next to the module on the right, however the corner is that big that the assembly table can't get close enough to get the effect of the module.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3165297025

Here, is the only way I have found to get two tables with an adjacency bonus by going over the table, however this blocks out future placement of the issue board, as the table only recognises buff items placed above it, but the belt is in the way.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3165296928

I'm not sure what other direction is possible, but I could easily be wrong.

In terms of if it is worth it, it seems to have diminishing returns the more skilled the assembly worker is. A completely unskilled, unbuffed worker takes 12 hours to complete their work, while putting a module next to them reduces it to 8 (reducing it by 2 hours each level). Whereas a highly skilled,highly buffed worker, each level only reduces it by half an hour.

One could question if that extra hour is worth it if your typesetters have to walk all the way to the assembly table (how long is an hour in this game?) - especially with the current state of elevators. You could argue that this is good early game, but early game you don't have enough articles and pages to need that speed boost.

I'd really like to see stuff that encourages out of the box thinking and unconventional setups more than just the straight printer in a row.

This is my current printing press setup, both assembly workers are level 5 and it takes them 3-4 hours to assemble.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3165321334

I didn't say a single module for the 2 tables, I said two modules with the tables between (the belt from modules went straight up) I haven't played that set up with the two between though, I just said it is possible when between the 2 modules to have 2 fully buffed assemblers.

If you are on discord, my old save where I had a 3 floor production, so printer module&assembler, next floor my typesetters, next floor printer module and assembler.

I don't disagree about diminishing returns in later game, but I do find the buff nice especially to begin with and with unskilled/low skilled workers. It also means you can take longer before hiring a second assembler if money or space is an issue at the time. I should also say that I bought 2 floors from the beginning of the game, although it is possible to still get the +2 if you buy the single floor especially now you can place noise reduction thingies above the belt. For each room with 1 printer part 3 noise reduction squares (sorry the name eludes me) should suffice, along with brick walls and mix of temp objects, plants (which can now be placed on printer parts - brilliant!) and a clock.

Oh sorry, I got mixed up

[jhughes]

Are these things not too noisy? I noticed the buff in the docs but decided not to even try. But what the heck, I'll try anything once.

[Korashy]

I don't think it's worth it to do layouts like in the screenshots.

Just the amount of time it takes Typesetters to walk to assemblers is already a net negative.

You are better off just having Typesetters and Assemblers next to each other, with a cart that gives both +1 in between.

[nightinggale]

I did some experimentation and I can firmly say the answer is no, it's not worth it. The biggest problem is actually belts and how much space they take up.

The issue with belts is that they can only attach to printers horizontally. This means you have to leave room for turning between vertical and horizontally if you plan to use more than one floor for printers. As a result, if you have your printers in one row and move one (just one) to another floor, the remaining printers will actually end up taking up more space, not less. Part of the reason is that the belt can only go in one direction so there is no way to have two printers directly on top of each other.

Another reason why belts should be avoided is that they exist in the "workstation" layer. This means adding a belt blocks vents and whatever else you want to place on the wall. This is particularly bad when you consider that the printer produces heat and needs to be vented if next to staff.

The only real solution is to have a dedicated printer floor and ignore the bonus to assemblers.

For printers to be more flexible and hence be able to play a bigger role in layout designs, I think the following will be needed:

• Belts can attach to printers vertically and horizontally.
  
• Support two elevations of belts on each floor, the current and one on top of the current. This will allow S shaped belts, which will be needed if printers are on top of each other.
  
• Make a dedicated belt layer will not take up valuable space from workstations.

I think this will be the requirements for doing anything other than a dedicated printer floor. Noise and heat will still be an issue and honestly it's likely somewhat unbalanced (not worth it) to place people next to printers. However this can be rebalanced to make it more feasible. I love the idea of a push towards layout puzzles with reasonable benefits to achieve.

Originally posted by Korashy:

You are better off just having Typesetters and Assemblers next to each other, with a cart that gives both +1 in between.

That's my biggest concern too. The printer takes up a lot more space, adds noise and heat and in the end it's just +1 more than the cart. There is a balance issue here. I mean sure it's possible to have a cart to one side and the printer to the other for +3, but then we are back to it taking up quite a lot of space for just one assembler.

[nightinggale]

I take back my earlier statement. This can be exploited, but you have to go all in on it. I managed to place 4 fully buffed assemblers, two printers, a toilet and a gumball machine on a single floor without any negative environment like noise. The floor on top is a dedicated printer floor with nothing else.

It's still a valid question if it is worth it for +2. Given how difficult it is to set up, maybe not. It's way easier to just add more assemblers. Granted buffing the assemblers makes it cheaper regarding salaries so.... but now I may need more re-suppliers to feed the assemblers as they aren't paired up with typesetting desks anymore.